Sunday 4th April, 2010

Q+A’s Panel Discussions with Paul Holmes, Dr Jon Johansson, Matt McCarten & Don Brash.

The panel discussions have been transcribed below. The full length video interviews and panel discussions from this morning’s Q+A can also be seen on tvnz.co.nz at, http://tvnz.co.nz/q-and-a-news

Q+A is repeated on TVNZ 7 at 9.10pm on Sunday nights and 10.10am and 2.10pm on Mondays.

PANEL DISCUSSIONS led by PAUL HOLMES

Response to TARIANA TURIA & SIR MASON DURIE interview

PAUL We need to say that after that I've on Thursday Mrs Turia clarified that it won't be a trust running this Whanau Ora but what she called a lead agency. So do we know any more about Whanau Ora after that?

DON BRASH – Former National Leader

I certainly do, I wasn’t very familiar with the concept at all, but I'm certainly very supportive of any new way of dealing with these issues. The current system is clearly not working well at all for Maori or for the community more generally.

PAUL I thought you'd have a problem with what appears to be race based funding.

DON I Tariana Turia was quite clear that this is open to other people as well, she made the point about health providers serving up to 40% non Maori.

JON JOHANSSON – Political Analyst

It has to be open to everybody not least because 50% of Maori are married to non Maori or their partner is non Maori, but that does bring up also the point of in those circumstances will everybody want to access Whanau Ora and it's still not clear to me from that interview how exactly that access you know commences.

PAUL Well when she talks about a lead agency, it's a kind of centrification isn't it of services coming in.

MATT McCARTEN – General Secretary, Unite

It's a one stop shop, I remember when the Labour and the Alliance first came into government we set the Ministry of Economic Development as a one stop shop for business, it's the same sort of thing. I would imagine the dysfunctional families who we can't get into the system now are gonna run a mile from this, because it will make them more accountable, and something's gotta happen. I think what Don was really saying which I agree with is something else has gotta be tried, 50% of the gaol population are Maori, Pakeha have been running the social welfare system since the 30s and so what everyone's saying can't Maori do it themselves – it is a do or die as you said at the start, you know there's two big issues on, this is one of them, if they can get this through you know it will change the nature of social welfare delivery in this country and in education and health.

PAUL But as you say it's very important to remember that whatever we've been doing up to now ain't working.

JON And my understanding is that within the Ministry of Social Development they're also well along the way of developing the idea of service hubs, and that indeed is one of the problems of this is it could actually compete with it.

MATT And every time you have a kid being killed, and in some of these families everyone says what should we do about this, this is the first time I think at least there's been something which seems to be over arching, the devil will be in the detail, there'll be mistakes and they say we'll roll it out, but we'll see.

PAUL Can I ask you all to help Alex out, Alex had texted us, 'This separation of funding is apartheid, is this what Maori want?'

MATT Well the Maori Party says that we're pro Maori and there's a reason why we've formed and so they're saying we have to say this – the problem is and Alex and others will hate the view - we're saying well at the moment that Maori are at the bottom of every stat there is, something's gotta happen and so is it apartheid, not it's not. Will people be scared about it, yes, they should just relax actually.

JON But we will actually see what sort of take up there is, you know for some families they might choose – and you know the think I keep on thinking is, whether it's a new mechanism fine, you know supportive as well, but unless it's a proactive one how's anything going to be any different.

MATT It seems to be that.

PAUL In terms of resources the Minister is speaking about one billion dollars here's what she said.

Tariana Turia: 'There's something like 240 or maybe more Maori health providers, there's probably almost an equal amount of social service providers, when you start to look at integrating those contracts I think you will see considerable dollars being invested in this new approach

Guyon: On that sort of level?

Tariana Turia: I think that it would end up being at that level definitely.'

PAUL A billion dollars Don.

DON Yeah but not racially exclusive, I mean it was interesting the word Maori didn’t appear in the programme till well towards the end of it, it could have been the whole population being talked about there, I didn’t find it offensive at all.

MATT Don has had a resurrection from what he used to be.

PAUL A reincarnation.

MATT It's Easter, so we have a new man here. Goodness me it's exciting.

PAUL But is a billion a lot?

MATT No, all numbers are numbers alright, they're talking about if you take Health and Education there's no time span on it, it could be a million bucks it could be a billion, who knows it depends on what you want to …

JON I don’t think it's gonna be the billion up front that was originally – and so you’re seeing some rhetorical sliding here.

PAUL She was also talking about, or was it Sir Mason. Sir Mason was talking about there's got to be results here's what he said.

Sir Mason Durie: 'They should be able to demonstrate that the whanau is better off financially, better off socially, more social cohesion, and better off culturally, so that they're broad areas I know but there are indicators within all of those areas that will be useful in measuring the outcomes.'

PAUL So there has to be accountability, and that’s gonna be one of the big issues isn't it, testing results.

JON Metrics for success and transparent about that, and you know but Matt's right before he says you know there'll be some stumbles and what have you, and it's gonna take them a while to build up capacity, cos you know some Runanga now are well positioned and Tariana was saying you know 20 to kick off with, but there's a lot of capacity building that needs to take place.

PAUL Can I just ask you as political people, I mean Tariana Turia's achievements this week, the Foreshore and Seabed Act will be repealed, we now get the Whanau Ora with considerable resources to be committed, I mean politically these are historic achievements.

MATT If it's what we think it is, it is huge, and I think it actually justifies their break from Labour, and their justification as an independent political force, it wouldn’t have happened without them, the devil will be in the detail of course about whether it's flannel or whether it's real.

DON I agree with that, I have fundamental differences with the Maori Party's constitutional objectives, they have a view of New Zealand which I certainly do not share, but Whanau Ora doesn’t to me cause any great problem.

JON I think it's the detail, until we see that really at the moment we just don’t quite know what the shape's going to look like.

PAUL So we will see.

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Response to WINSTON PETERS interview

PAUL What do you make of Mr Peters calls it separatism and it never works.

MATT Don’t you just miss him? He's been away too long. He doesn’t change his story.

PAUL He's revealed this morning that you're working for the Maori Party.

MATT No, no no, it's the same way that you’ve revealed I'm working for John Tamihere, you know it's all just made up. I've got a real job. But he's putting up legitimate fears that people will have.

PAUL Are we talking about Whanau Ora or the Foreshore and Seabed?

MATT The Foreshore and Seabed, I think that most New Zealanders were concerned about whether they have the right of access, you know it's public domain they’ve got to get their head around, I guess if Labour supports, National supports it and the Maori Party supports it, that that will have some comfort around it and people want it off the agenda.

JON There is this issued though in my mind you know we've all thought about the beaches and access to the beaches as Matt says, but the real – I think the future here isn't it about the minerals in the seabed?

PAUL It is about revenue, it is about clipping the ticket isn't it?

MATT Yeah but the minerals have been nationalised a long time ago, they actually belong to the government, they don’t belong to anyone else.

PAUL What is customary title Dr Brash and what is the difference please, you're a very intelligent man, can you please tell us the difference between Crown ownership and public domain?

DON I can't see any difference at all, I think the government's being very shrewd, they’ve said they will not abolish the current legislation unless there is consensus around replacement, public domain effectively guarantees everybody access to the beaches which is what New Zealanders want, and they've said effectively Maori have the right to go back to the court, they should always have had that right, I think in retrospect we were wrong to deny that right.

PAUL Why would they go to the court if they can negotiate directly with government?

DON Well you can always negotiate with any party rather than go to court.

MATT I think the public domain, this is why I think it's actually very good politically is that when it's owned by the Crown it put the Maori in a disadvantage in terms of negotiation, now you say we're all equal, it belongs to the public but also the government and the Maori iwis have equal space they say, so I guess it gives the Maori iwis a leverage in terms of negotiations.

PAUL What about what Mr Peters was saying about what Maori are being told on the Marae versus what we're hearing on programmes…

MATT You know Winston's a mischief maker extraordinary, I don’t doubt for a minute that political spin is all over, the Maori Party needs to present back to its membership, this is a victory, you have Winston who is Winston and he wants to say it's all lies because he needs to deal with his constituency, it's all spin, he's as bad as what he's saying that others are.

JON The expectations around this Foreshore and Seabed have been built and one of the places they have been exploded out in has been on Marae, you know Hone's view that the confiscation and what have you, and that’s why it's going to be very interesting to see if Maori accept this preferred …

MATT Exactly.

PAUL Don what about how this is playing with John Key's own constituency? The broad church, that is the National Party, I mean what is the party going to feel about Whanau Ora and the Foreshore and Seabed?

DON Well I think Foreshore and Seabed the government is saying you will have access to the beaches and that’s what most New Zealanders absolutely want, customary rights and customary title are two different things, customary rights don’t give anyone very much actually, give you rights to launch your waka and gather some hangi stones but don’t give any fishing rights or whatever, customary title is a more generous, or more substantive issue.

JON So you're not worried about veto rights now?

DON Well getting customary title as the Minister makes very clear will not be easy, so I think this is a deal which can be sold to John Key's constituency.

PAUL Nevertheless it might be a period of stability we're headed to on the Foreshore and Seabed, we might be some more aquaculture developing and some commercial…

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Response to ROBERT FISK interview

PAUL A couple of words perhaps from the panel about what Robert Fisk was saying about the Middle East, first of all Don Brash, you aren’t quite so pessimistic about Obama's ability to put pressure on Israel?

DON I think that’s right, there's quite a significant swing in opinion within the Jewish community in the United States, I think it's called the Jay Street Movement of the Jewish community in the US which is not supporting the traditional line on the United States and I think that gives him quite a lot more influence than he's had in the past.

JON And I think what we've seen in recent weeks is just the beginning stages of a Barak Obama playing the long game, to me I think watch the second term in the Middle East that’s where he's really gonna….

PAUL He's still feeling is way isn't he?

MATT He's right about domestic but at the moment right there's a swing in the Israeli electorate to the right, now they’ve given up, they’ve put the walls up, as long as we don’t have anyone blowing us up we don’t care any more, and that’s why the swing and that’s why they've trapped themselves in – they don’t want peace, they just want the Palestinians suppressed and leave us alone and we're gonna do whatever we like. In terms of Afghanistan he's absolutely right, we should never have been in that country and we're gonna have to leave in due course, and it's a total disgrace.

PAUL Bleak prospect.

DON Absolutely. No hope at all.

MATT It is a corrupt sort of war, it's just like Vietnam is where we kept propping up corrupt regimes …

JON To all intents and purposes still in the 12th century.

PAUL The week coming up, short week of course, what are you expecting to see this week, Jon.

JON Well the fleshing out of Whanau Ora, really the detail is going to give a lot more depth to what we've heard today I think.

DON I think the ongoing debate about Foreshore and Seabed, I think we've only just begun to see that debate, the policy paper came out just before Easter, I think there'll be quite a lot of ongoing debate about that.

MATT And very quickly if you recall that this government was gonna give us a taxcut today they haven't given us a taxcut, they’ve raised the ACC so everyone's pay packet is gonna be smaller this week.

PAUL When is John Tamihere announcing?

MATT He wants to run with you Paul.

ENDS

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