Q+A's Paul Holmes interviews Labour Party Leader, Phil Goff

The interview has been transcribed below. The full length video interviews from this morning's Q+A can also be seen on tvnz.co.nz at, <

Q+A is repeated on TVNZ 7 at 9.10pm on Sunday nights and 10.10am and 2.10pm on Mondays.

PHIL GOFF interviewed by PAUL HOLMES

PAUL Mr Goff is with us. Good morning.

PHIL GOFF - Labour Leader

Good morning, Paul.

PAUL The damage of Mr Carter. The undoubted, albeit short-lived, damage of Mr Carter. What it's done is given the editorial writers all weekend to pontificate about the Goff leadership. That's the damage, isn't it?

PHIL I think the damage that Chris did was essentially to himself, actually. Um, I regret that. I'm disappointed in the behaviour. Chris has to accept personal responsibility for what he did. The response was quick, it was decisive and it was supported unanimously by the caucus.

PAUL Regarding Mr Carter, is it your belief he is unwell?

PHIL I think he is unwell, and for that reason, I don't want to make a lot of personal comments about Chris. He needs some privacy. He needs some time. But the truth is, he is gone from the Labour caucus.

PAUL Indeed. Should he have gone when Helen Clark said to him back in June, if your heart's not in it, give it away?

PHIL Well, I understand he was given that advice. I think it was time for him to move on. I gave him a second chance, but you don't get a third chance in a situation like that.

PAUL Still, do you believe Mr Carter when he says all of the caucus has wondered at some time about your ability to win the election next year? He's right, isn't he? Do you believe that they believe, really, that you've got it?

PHIL Oh, look, I've got no doubt that I have the full support of my caucus. Chris accepted-

PAUL No, I'm asking you do you believe that they believe-

PHIL And, look, let me make this- let me make this quite clear to you. I was elected unanimously as Labour leader originally.

PAUL Yes, you were.

PHIL I was re-elected last year unanimously. I was supported unanimously in the decision that I took against Mr Carter.

PAUL This week, because you-

PHIL What about that don't you understand?

PAUL Well, because you worked very quickly and hit them between the eyes. Of course that was going to be unanimous. If something had been going on, you did the right thing and hit them between the eyes.

PHIL It was the sort of leadership that my caucus expected and the country expected, and they got it.

PAUL But let me go back, Mr Goff. Do you believe that that caucus really believes that you've got it?

PHIL Yeah.

PAUL I mean, because people around the country- You know, this is what people around the country ask about you all the time.

PHIL Look, you know, I've got a track record. I've had 15 years as a minister. I've never tripped up. I've never stuffed up. I've done the job competently. They know that. I was put in as leader of the party because people thought I was best to do that job. They still think that.

PAUL Or are you same old, same old?

PHIL Oh, I've been around. But, you know-

PAUL 30 years.

PHIL Yeah, in a situation like New Zealand has, you need people with experience. You need people with substance.

PAUL What is going on in the Labour Party at the moment? Are unions beginning to test their strength?

PHIL No, union movement's always been affiliated to the Labour Party, supportive of it. There are things that we have in common. But you look at our caucus, and there are people from all walks of life.

PAUL Yes, but are the unions beginning to test their strength?

PHIL No, I don't believe so.

PAUL Well, you see, you stated the other day - and I think this inflamed the president of the CTU, Helen Kelly, rather as much as Mr Key's initial move did - you stated that you were relaxed about selling, or the government's plans to allow workers to sell the fourth week of their holidays. Um, you don't stand by that any more, do you?

PHIL No. No, what I said was of a range of things that the government is legislating for that will hurt the interests of ordinary working New Zealanders, that's lower down my list of priorities than things like being able to be sacked without being given the reason.

PAUL No, hang on. Let's talk about being able to sell the fourth week.

PHIL OK. No, no, but, listen to what I'm saying, Paul.

PAUL No, no, no. Hang on. Are we OK-

PHIL Paul, listen to what I'm saying.

PAUL I know what you're going to say.

PHIL I'm saying that we are not in favour of trading off a fourth week's holiday, but I know exactly why workers might feel the need to do that at the moment. They feel the need to do that because they are being screwed on their wages, prices are going up faster than wages and they're desperate to try to make ends meet. We don't want that situation.

PAUL No, but go back to your fourth week. I know what I read - I'm relaxed about workers, as long as they're not coerced, selling the fourth week of their holidays.

PHIL It's not the most important of the priorities of the anti-worker legislation that the National Party has put before the country.

PAUL Are you for it or against it? Are you for it or against it at the moment? Yes or no?

PHIL We are against it.

PAUL You.

PHIL We are against it.

PAUL You.

PHIL I am against it.

PAUL Right.

PHIL But it is not my top priority in terms of the anti-worker legislation.

PAUL So suddenly we are-

PHIL Is that perfectly clear?

PAUL Yes, it does. It leads me to my next question. So we are now against it? We were quite relaxed. The word relaxed was used.

PHIL No, no, no.

PAUL We are relaxed. We are against it now.

PHIL No, don't make an issue out of something that's not there, Paul. I've had this discussion. I've had this discussion with trade union leaders. I talk regularly with Helen Kelly. I talk with Andrew Little. We have a good understanding. Andrew Little said on television last night that he was hugely supportive of the lead that I'd taken in fighting that anti-worker legislation.

PAUL The little question that I have is that Andrew Little suddenly comes along, the president of the party, says, 'Oh, no, what Mr Goff was saying, being relaxed about the fourth week, is not Labour policy.' Is the president now dictating policy? Because I know that-

PHIL No, the policy is made in the caucus.

PAUL I know that Bob Harvey never ever commented on policy when he was president of the party, nor did Mike Williams.

PHIL But, look, let's not let-

PAUL And he's a unionist, Mr Little, isn't he?

PHIL Let's not create an issue where one doesn't exist. I get on very well with Andrew. I work closely with him personally. We share most of the views that we have, but like any political party, we're all individuals. We're not clones.

PAUL How important is rejuvenation? Well, we know it's important to any party. How important is it in your mind, rejuvenation?

PHIL I think it's really important. But what you have to understand is that that in a significant degree has already happened. A third of my caucus were elected in 2008 and in last year's Mt Albert by-election. What Te Atatu gives us is a chance for rejuvenation there. There will be other opportunities. I think if you listen to what commentators are saying about the Labour caucus, they're saying they see a hell of a lot of talent in it. That talent will develop. It will strengthen. Labour will be ready. It will be ready in 2011,...

PAUL In time for next year.

PHIL ...and we will have a credible and strong and united team to take Labour into the election.

PAUL How will it matter next year when no one's heard of them?

PHIL Oh, I think people have heard of them. You've seen the changes that have been made and the reshuffle that's happened already. People like Grant Robertson coming forward. Charles Chauvel. A person like David Parker, who's been a strong performer.

PAUL There are some- There appears to be, though, I mean- And we've got several opportunities for further rejuvenation. I think, we can all agree this. And there's been some jostling going on for seats. Now, take, for example, the Manurewa seat. An EPMU member, a union member, is going for Mr Hawkins' seat, apparently. Jerome Mika, we understand, is the man challenging. Who do you want to see there, in Manurewa?

PHIL Well, look, we have a democratic situation within the Labour Party. Any sitting MP, including myself, can be challenged. At the moment there is only one nomination for the Manurewa seat. And let me give you this prediction. George Hawkins is very popular locally. He's got strong support from his local people. If there was a contest, he would win it. I'll make another prediction - that George Hawkins will decide in his own time what his future will be.

PAUL And when might that be? The thing about Mr Hawkins, we're talking about no disrespect to Mr Hawkins, but we know he's never going to make it back into the front bench. He's been in public life 30 years; he's been in Parliament 20 years. Now you've got a chance for rejuvenation, and suddenly we're supporting Mr Hawkins.

PHIL Well, I'm not going to go seat by seat through that. As I said, George Hawkins will make his own decision about that. And I will respect whatever decision he makes.

PAUL What is the real problem facing you? It is not just same old, same old, which you've talked about. We've got to have people with experience, of course. Is it, in fact, do you think, that no matter what you do, and it's generally reckoned that you've got to be showing some progress in the polls by the new year, really, for Labour to have a chance by the end of next year, is it simply that people aren't ready to go back to Labour? Is that the problem?

PHIL Well, I think what happens when you've had a party in government for three terms, a new government is elected, they're given the benefit of the doubt. They're often given the benefit of the doubt for a long time. But in the intro to this programme, you mentioned a couple of things. Labour was on the front foot over the mining and conservation parks. The National Party screwed it up. They made a mess of it. This last week, they were talking about the situation with the catch-up with Australia. Gerry Brownlee and John Key were denying that the gap had widened. Clearly, as you pointed out, it had widened. I think that damages their credibility. And let me make another prediction for you. On October the 1st of this year, people's prices will be racing ahead - the Treasury itself predicts nearly 6% - their wages aren't. There will be discontent around that, and a sense of unfairness that the top 5% are picking up $5 billion in tax cuts and lower- and middle-income people are not being fairly compensated.

PAUL Thank you. I've got leave it there, Mr Goff.

PHIL Thank you very much.

ENDS

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