THE NATION TRANSCRIPTS SATURDAY 7/07/10
(Copyright to Front Page Ltd but may be used provided attribution is made to "TV3's 'The Nation'")

BRITS HINT AT WANTING NEW ZEALAND TO STAY IN AFGHANISTAN.

A heavy hint today that Britain wants New Zealand to stay in Afghanistan.

Speaking today on TV3’s “The Nation,” British junior Foreign Minister, Lord David Howell said he talked about the war in Afghanistan with Prime Minister John Key on their way back from the South Pacific Forum in Vanuatu.

Lord Howell said: “No one likes war, but we have to face the fact that this is part of a task for the 21st century of which the present phase is containment in Afghanistan, but there are going to be I think more phases beyond that in other countries.”

Asked if he thought New Zealand stay on Afghanistan he said: “I think all the democracies and the responsible nations realise that there is a task to be done here, if we want the 21st century to be reasonably secure.

“If we want some prevention of the real violence of the extreme Islamic movement, as opposed to the moderate Islamic movement which is just as horrified as we are, we're all going to have a task to do at the moment in Afghanistan, there may be new tasks ahead we haven't even started addressing. “

SEAN You're back with The Nation. Our next guest is credited with introducing the idea of privatisation to the UK, and to his then Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher, who as we know embraced the concept with some enthusiasm. Lord David Howell as a young Conservative then, he's now a Minister of State in the Foreign Office, one of the few Cabinet Ministers from Thatcher's era who still holds high position in the Tory Party today. He's been in Vanuatu for the Pacific Islands Forum. He joins us now in the studio. Welcome to the programme Lord Howell.

As we say you're one of the survivors if you like, or one of the long serving Tories, you are now part of a coalition government under David Cameron. What comparison would you make between Cameron and Thatcher, two quite different leaders I imagine?

LORD HOWELL – British Conservative Minister
Well it's a different era of course, and the style is different, and being in a coalition government is different to being in a party only, one party government, but the challenges are as big if not bigger. So we had to take a very strong line when Mrs Thatcher first came in and challenge all sorts of assumptions and mindsets, and we do again have to do the same today.

SEAN What are the assumptions and mindsets you think need to be changed on 2010?

LORD HOWELL Well I think the whole international landscape has changed it's one reason why I'm travelling in these parts of visiting you, because the coalition government does see a new world that has emerged in which the Atlantic countries no longer call all the shots, the west is no longer as it were on top, and we in the UK to survive and prosper and a trading nation like you, we have to be very agile and go for the new opportunities. So that’s a challenge and also of course we're in a huge recession out of which we're digging ourselves, and that too has been quite painful and still is quite painful.

SEAN It's been made very clear I understand to British Diplomats that if they want to keep those nice High Commissions and Embassies, they’ve gotta trade, they’ve gotta use them to grow business for British companies around the world. It's a very pragmatic approach rather than ideological. Do you think David Cameron is more of a pragmatist than Margaret Thatcher was?

LORD HOWELL Well I think politicians have to, I mean the great ideological wars of the 20th century are really over and the extreme socialistic collectivism, or of course the ultimate expression was communism was completely defeated, but similarly the extreme opposite that everything can be left to untrammelled, unregulated free markets is also defeated, and we're coming together on some common ground, which is more on the free market side, but definitely some kind of compromise between collective and individual action.

SEAN Do you feel David Cameron is a compromised Conservative Prime Minister.

LORD HOWELL Well he understands the positioning and he understands that you can't spend too much time fighting these old ideological wars, and that we have got to resolve these huge global issues, and they are almost all global, or anyway trans continental and international, in a very pragmatic, and a very flexible way. You can't approach them with a sort of too many preconditions, otherwise you end up flat on your face.

SEAN You would have just heard the debate we've had about foreign ownership in New Zealand, particularly of our productive resources. I suggest that perhaps it was a little xenophobic, do you think countries like New Zealand need to be more open to the idea of international commerce, of the fact that there are very few boundaries left these days?

LORD HOWELL Well there are very few boundaries, I'm not totally geared up on the precise nuances of how open New Zealand is, but it sounds as though you're pretty open, and turning this on its head of course in the UK we're very open including to substantial New Zealand capital. There are limits frankly, that if some incomers really are not genuine commercial operations, operating on commercial principles, but are driven by the politics behind the curtain as it were, then I think politicians and policy makers are entitled to say wait a minute could we just check this one out before we say yes.

SEAN One way in which New Zealand I guess leads Britain, is the form of government we have, mixed member proportional representation, coalition government's nothing new to us, in fact very much the norm. How did you feel when you realised that the Conservatives were gonna have to do a deal to get power at the last election?

LORD HOWELL Well I don’t think my smile was too broad. I think we can live with it, and we have to feel our way, it's what we're heading towards is this alternative vote system.

SEAN You believe Britain is going that way, you will go that way?

LORD HOWELL Well I said we're heading towards it, we're gonna have first of all a referendum on whether it should happen at all, and we'll have to see what the nation feels about the prospect of more coalitions. We've got one now, seems to be working alright, people are quite happy, but it could run into difficulties and then they change their mind.

SEAN Is it working alright? Are your old Conservative mates happy that the Lib Dems are there?

LORD HOWELL Look the nature of these coalitions is that some people are happy, some people are unhappy, but the forces of happiness I think are stronger than the forces pulling it apart, but down at the grassroots of both major coalition partners there are bound to be some grumblers, but at the leadership level and right across the country generally the coalition is very popular and the leadership level is working extremely well, we've got new mechanisms, we're working between the former leaderships of the two parties very closely indeed, and so far so good.

SEAN Did you get a chance to meet John Key when you were up in Vanuatu?

LORD HOWELL Yes I did, well I travelled about with him and we had a very enjoyable conversation.

SEAN` Could you make comparisons between he and Cameron, are they similar?

LORD HOWELL Well I think they are in some ways, I mean they're of the same generation, they’ve got a very very clear view of how to face the new challenges, and I think they understand the world as it is. I mean yes I think they're cut from the same model as it were to meet these new conditions.

SEAN And both pragmatists, both pragmatic.

LORD HOWELL Pragmatic, but I mean not entirely abandoning the ideological moorings, you know believe in some core values we have about human rights, and the right of the individual in a dangerous world, and upholding the rule of law and democracy and so on, I mean these are values we not only hold to, we're actually gonna have to fight for, all round the world cos they're under threat.

SEAN Britain has been involved in some real fights of recent times, and I think it would be fair to say they have not gone according to plan, and they have been far more costly in extended conflicts than one wanted. Is Britain looking now to extract itself quickly from the difficult situation in Afghanistan and of course Iraq?

LORD HOWELL Well I think the word quickly doesn’t belong in that question, obviously we want to see a containment and a policy with an end game to it. We talk about success rather than victory in Afghanistan. What does success mean? It means that we can over a period of time, probably three or four years, safely see the civil order and containment of the conditions in Afghanistan handed over to the Afghanistan National Army and to the civil authorities, but it's after that there will still be training, after that there will still be Al Qaeda training threats in other countries over the border in Pakistan, over the Deran Line and of course down the horn of Africa, Somali in particular. You know this is gonna be a task for our century rather than a task for the next two years.

SEAN New Zealand of course has just suffered it's first loss in Afghanistan.

LORD HOWELL Yes I really feel for you.

SEAN You have suffered that and more for some time.

LORD HOWELL We've had 312 and our American colleagues have had 3000 or something like that.

SEAN Does that sort of casualty rate make the war politically unacceptable at home?

LORD HOWELL It makes it a sad commitment, but one I think that people they don’t like - no one likes war, but we have to face the fact that this is part of a task as I've just said for the 21st century of which the present phase is containment in Afghanistan, but there are going to be I think more phases beyond that in other countries.

SEAN Did you talk about our commitment in Afghanistan with John Key?

LORD HOWELL Not in great detail, obviously I commiserated with him over this tragedy you’ve had, and we talked about the long term problems of Afghanistan, they’ve been very difficult people to contain, they will never be completely contained, but yes we talked about it a little bit, perhaps I should correct myself, but not in great detail.

SEAN Do you think New Zealand should stay there if it's needed, if it's asked to by its international partners and colleagues?

LORD HOWELL I think all the democracies and the responsible nations, and you're obviously a key one of those, and if I can add it, all Commonwealth nations do realise that there is a task to be done here, if we want the 21st century to be reasonably secure and reasonably good governance prevail, and the remaining rogue states to be kept contained, and there are some of those, and if we want some prevention of the real violence of the extreme Islamic movement, as opposed to the moderate Islamic movement which is just as horrified as we are, we're all going to have a task to do at the moment in Afghanistan, there may be new tasks ahead we haven't even started addressing. I mentioned Somalia and places, these are dangers areas, where dangerous things could happen which could affect us all in our homes and our streets.

SEAN Finally I want to ask you what do you think the future is for conservatism, particularly as electoral systems change, coalition governments are formed, political boundaries seem to be far more blurred than they were before, and everyone's rushing for the centre. Do you think conservatism particularly in Britain still has a core message or value to convey to people?

LORD HOWELL Oh yes, good heavens yes. I'm a Conservative, but people always assume that conservatism was a sort of solid ideological block and maybe at times under Mrs Thatcher the marvellous Margaret Thatcher, people thought you know it's all about free markets and individuals. It never was, the Conservatives actually are conservatives, and that means consolidating a sort of social mix, which involves good government, and sometimes strong government, upholding the rule of law, upholding security and so on, and allowing the free market to work.

SEAN Thank you very much indeed for joining us, Lord David Howell.

ENDS

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