TRANSCRIPTS SATURDAY AIGUIST 21; PAULA BENNETT

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GOVERNMENT TO CRACK DOWN ON SICKNESS BENEFICIARIES

The Government is to crack down on sickness beneficiaries.

Social Development Minister Paula Bennett said today that from May next year beneficiaries assessed as being capable will be required to work part time.

Speaking on TV3’s "the Nation" she said that currently 9000 sickness beneficiaries were assessed by their doctor as being capable of part time work.

"The doctor thinks they can work part time, we at the moment do nothing about that, we don’t insist that they do look for part time work, but we actually know it's better for their health," she said.

"So where a doctor says yes we think you can work part time we will be work testing those people and helping get them into part time work."

And if the beneficiaries refuse to work, Ms Bennett says the Government will reduce their sickness benefit.

"There will be expectations that they are fronting up and working where they can, and if they're not actually doing those sorts of activities then yes we will be cutting their benefit by 50% to start with," she said.

"Then they can actually come up and do that sort of activity that’s needed, and then if they're not actually fronting up then there will be other penalties to it."

In April this year the Government set up the Welfare Working Group chaired by Paula Rebstock to investigate reforms to social welfare and particularly to look at the so-called insurance model for welfare.

The Group is due to report later this year but Ms Bennett said she did not currently have an opinion on whether an insurance model would work.

"What we're more focused on is making sure that the right people are getting on to the right benefits, and those that shouldn’t be on them are not getting on, and that we're actually getting them back to work," she said.

"I also think the ACC model is one that we can learn from and am asking them to look at that.

"You know we put people on benefits and leave them there, why aren’t we actually working towards what will get them well.

"Should we be frontloading a bit more support which I'm pretty keen to look at as well."

MINISTER WANTS MAORI TO ADDRESS CHILD ABUSE PROBLEM

Social Development Minister Paul Bennett has asked Maori leaders to address child abuse among Maori.

Speaking today on TV3’s "The Nation" she said she had her comments at a closed door session at Turangawaewae Marae with iwi leaders this week because 50 per cent of abused children were Maori.

"I think the feeling I got was that they are ready to talk about solutions, "she said.

"So let's not apportion blame, let's actually talk about who these children are, where they are and how we support and protect them better."

Asked why she thought Maori beat their children she said: "I look at some of these young women and I really worry for them to be honest.

"I think that they have a low sense of value and self-esteem, quite frankly they're letting some sort of pieces of filth into their lives that are actually hurting their children.

", I think that they’ve lost a bit of hope, and I think that we can get that back, and I think the Iwi leaders can show real leadership in that."

And asked if the iwi leadership were up for it, she said: "Yeah they did. Man did they --- they stood up and said we are up for it."

"The state has responsibility to these children, we will be stepping in there, but boy if the iwi leadership can identify those whanau for us and make sure that we then do the proper checks and balances on that, then I think it's better for those kids."

DUNCAN Changes to the welfare system this week will see solo parents on the DPB work tested and forced to get back to work part time when their youngest child turns six. But there are more changes to come and the government's Welfare Working Group will by the end of this year throw up more recommendations. The group of course paints a depressing picture of the welfare system saying it's effectively broken, it's out of date and needs a major overhaul. Social Development Paula Bennett joins us now, Paula. Thanks for joining us on The Nation this morning.

Where's the crisis in welfare because ten years ago there were 364,000 beneficiaries, it's actually come back to about 330,000 even on the government's own tickets, where's the crisis?

PAULA BENNETT – Social Welfare Development Minister
Yeah we think there's about 333,000 past the 29,000 that are the partners of, so about 356,000 people dependent on welfare at the moment. Look you know Statistics New Zealand say that by 2029 we'll have more people not in the workforce than in the workforce. I think we need to be looking at those that are on welfare making sure that we're getting them into work wherever possible and giving them that opportunity really.

DUNCAN But there hasn’t been that massive explosion that the Welfare Working Group paints, if you look at that hard raw data.

PAULA Yeah what you do see though that is in supposedly the best of times, we saw the invalids’ benefit double, we saw the sickness benefit double. The time when actually we're getting healthier, we live longer, we've got access to better health treatments than ever before, we saw more people going on the sickness benefit by half, you know that’s huge. So that says to us is the system working right, are we actually giving those people the right sort of opportunities to get well and get into work.

DUNCAN So is that your next focus is the sickness beneficiaries, cos this week you’ve moved on those solo parents on the DPB, but the sickness beneficiaries still don’t have to have their work tested?

PAULA No, so that is part of the changes but they won’t be coming in until May next year. What we're saying is at the moment for example a doctor ticks the medical certificate and says yes we think this person can work part time, 9000 of them.

DUNCAN Nine thousand, 9000 people.

PAULA Nine thousand people that are on the sickness benefit, the doctor thinks they can work part time, we at the moment do nothing about that, we don’t insist that they do look for part time work, but we actually know it's better for their health.

DUNCAN So the changes next year, you are going to make sure that those people are work tested and forced back to work?

PAULA Yes so where a doctor says yes we think you can work part time we will be work testing those people and helping get them into part time work.

DUNCAN So I mean is it some kind of wrought, I mean shouldn’t there be some tougher doctor tests around this?

PAULA Well it's not so much the doctor tests, the doctors are saying that they can work part time, the test is not happening at Work and Income. In all fairness the policy is not there, so it's not the workers’ fault either, it's government's that we haven’t insisted that they actually work part time, so now we are. So that’s the big change really. It sort of struck me when I was visiting a Work and Income office one day, speaking to the person that looks after sickness beneficiaries, she said she’d written to those who could work part time, none had turned up to actually see her.

DUNCAN And will there be some stick here, will it be punitive if those 9000 don’t go back to work at some stage?

PAULA Yes there will be, there has to be.

DUNCAN But what will you do to them, will you take the benefit off them, will there be time limits?

PAULA Yeah, well not so much time limits but there will be expectations that they are fronting up and working where they can, and if they're not actually doing those sorts of activities then yes we will be cutting their benefit by 50% to start with, then they can actually come up and do that sort of activity that’s needed, and then if they're not actually fronting up then there will be other penalties to it.

DUNCAN But you accept some of those sickness beneficiaries can't actually work, one in three actually have psychological issues?

PAULA Most certainly we do, and let's be really clear that those on the invalid and sickness benefit, there are some that just need the time to get well, and there are some that will never be well, and we should be supporting them as much as possible, but there's also a lot of medical evidence that says that some of those were low level mental illnesses, other illnesses, work is actually part of the pathway to being well.

DUNCAN Okay you want to send them to work, where are the jobs? I mean you saw in Mt Roskill this week 150 jobs, 2700 applications at that New World. It's all very well saying send them back to work, where's the work?

PAULA We'll let's state it in, you know so we're not saying everyone on day one is going to find a job, but yes you're not going to find one if you're not looking. So we're asking people to look, you know we're asking people to be actively looking for work, and I can accept that it's tough out there and there's not the jobs, but we are coming out of recovery, more are coming in, all we're asking people to do is actively get themselves ready and look for work.

DUNCAN But you will not be punitive if these people turn up and are applying for jobs just don’t get them, you won’t be punitive in that situation.

PAULA Absolutely not, not on those on the DPB not on those on the sickness benefit, actually not on those on the unemployment benefit either, we're just asking them to look for work.

DUNCAN One of the major things that the Welfare Working Group looks at is the potential for a social insurance model where effectively New Zealanders pay as they go, a sort of future funded. Are you in principle, I want to get a clear answer from you, are you in principle looking at that?

PAULA I'm not, but I know it's part of what the Welfare Working Group have got in there.

DUNCAN Does the government agree with it?

PAULA We don’t have an opinion on it at the moment.

DUNCAN Well why would they be looking at it if you didn’t have an opinion?

PAULA Well that’s exactly why they should look at it, because quite frankly if we already knew what we were going to do why would you have a Welfare Working Group?

DUNCAN Are you open to it?

PAULA We have asked them to look at a range of options. Well we're certainly not taking anything off the table at the moment. I think that would be a bit silly to do as well. So we're asking them to look at a whole range of issues. I wouldn’t say it is foremost in my mind as a policy initiative at the moment.

DUNCAN But how would it work if it's not your priority then?

PAULA No it wouldn’t be my major priority no.

DUNCAN But the Welfare Working Group in its document I think it's the second paragraph in its document talks about how this needs to be future funded, because all these other OECD countries do it.

PAULA Yeah I spose what we're more focused on is making sure that the right people are getting on to the right benefits, and those that shouldn’t be on them are not getting on, and that we're actually getting them back to work. I also think the ACC model is one that we can learn from and am asking them to look at that. You know we put people on benefits and leave them there, why aren’t we actually working towards what will get them well. Should we be frontloading a bit more support which I'm pretty keen to look at as well.

DUNCAN But ACC which is my point is based on a levy which is effectively an insurance model isn’t it?

PAULA Yeah it is.

DUNCAN So you are looking at there?

PAULA Well I'm just not pre-empting what the Welfare Working Group are gonna come out with. I've asked them to look at a whole range of options. I think some of them are going to be what we do pick up, and some of them will be what we don’t, but how can we actually make that decision if we're not looking at them.

DUNCAN But the government is not against the idea of an insurance model though because given that is quite a big body of work within the Welfare Working Group I mean it would seem to me that you're not against the idea.

PAULA Well we're not writing it off at the moment no if that’s what you're asking, but whether I'm gonna pick it up next year and run with it, well that’s something to be seen as well, and I need to be assured that it's the sort of right sort of model and it's evidence based, and it's going to actually be supported by New Zealanders, so it's not something I'm working on at the moment.

DUNCAN I just want to change tack for the last part of this interview, and this is a speech that you made a couple of days ago to Iwi leaders, Maori Iwi leaders in Hamilton. It hasn’t been reported and you have talked about child abuse here. Very strongly said and I want to quote you this “Maori are beating abusing and neglecting and in extreme cases even killing their children at a rate higher than we all want”. How did that go down?

PAULA I would say Pakeha as well quite frankly.

DUNCAN Yeah but you had targeted that Iwi leadership group to say that.

PAULA Yeah I did. Well that’s the message to them, they are Iwi leaders so I'm going to talk to them about Maori children, but I would just put it in context and say I actually think that others are as well. Look it went down, I think the feeling I got was that they are ready to talk about solutions, so let's not apportion blame, let's actually talk about who these children are, where they are and how we support and protect them better.

DUNCAN You're clearly saying, I've read your speech, that overwhelmingly abuse is a Maori issue isn’t it?

PAULA Oh about 50% is, but if I only concentrated on that I wouldn’t be getting to the other 50% as well, but yes it is an issue for Maori, as it is for all New Zealanders.

DUNCAN And you’ve asked them to put their hands in their pockets for money, as well as asking them to take these children who all have Iwi affiliations into their care rather than CYFS taking care of them, I mean that’s quite controversial.

PAULA Well at the moment we've got 2,227 Maori children that are in state care, so they are under the Child Youth and Family and they do not have a family that is theirs for life, you know they are not in permanent care by a family, and these are Maori kids, 50% of them.

DUNCAN Why do you think Maori beat their kids overwhelmingly?

PAULA Oh why do Pakeha beat them.

DUNCAN No, but you have suggested overwhelmingly that this is a Maori issue in this, because the statistics that you’ve quoted prove it. Why do Maori do it?

PAULA Well I think that there is a degree of isolation. I think there is – I look at some of these young women and I really worry for them to be honest, I think that they have a low sense of value and self esteem, quite frankly they're letting some sort of pieces of filth into their lives that are actually hurting their children, I think that they’ve lost a bit of hope, and I think that we can get that back, and I think the Iwi leaders can show real leadership in that.

DUNCAN And did they say they're up for it?

PAULA Yeah they did. Man did they? They stood up and said we are up for it.

DUNCAN And they're going to commit money, are they going to commit money to help out with the costs?

PAULA Well we've got a bit of talking to do there yet, but you know you can't deny sort of more than 5000 children under our care and nearly half of them Maori. Let's get them into the right families, into the right whanau and get that sort of protection.

DUNCAN I just want to finish on why Maori do it. Why are they overwhelmingly represented?

PAULA Yeah I mean that’s something really that the Iwi leaders and others need to look at. I would tell you that I think it's a combination of isolation. Most of those that are in that sort of situation, their parents have not been parented well themselves, they’ve been notified to Child Young and Family. There is I reckon a bit of isolation, a lack of hope, and a lack of good parenting.

DUNCAN So you expect to see those thousands of Maori children that go into care every year be taken over by Iwi and placed into whanau, this is Whanau Ora really, placed into whanau homes, rather than CYFS placing them?

PAULA Oh look we will still be involved obviously, we will be making that call, it is our job, yeah? So the state has responsibility to these children, we will be stepping in there, but boy if they can identify those whanau for us and make sure that we then do the proper checks and balances on that, then I think it's better for those kids.

DUNCAN Alright Minister Paula Bennett thank you very much for joining us in the studio this morning, we appreciate your time.

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DUNCAN Our newsmaker this weekend is Social Development Minister Paula Bennett, joining us as our panel John Roughan, John welcome to you and Simon Wilson, hullo Simon.

DUNCAN Minister, I first just want to put it you the question that Duncan brought out early on in terms of reducing benefit numbers or people on benefits is they’ve gotta have jobs to go to. Gareth Morgan said if you’d drop the minimum wage you would create two new jobs in every supermarket carpark in the country overnight. Why don’t you do that? I mean your government put up the minimum wage.

PAULA Yeah well I spose we would just look at it that it's pretty tough to live on, yeah, and I don’t think anyone that underestimate that, we've made a decision that that’s where we think the minimum wage should be. I think that that’s what people are worth.

DUNCAN But doesn’t that minimum wage cause part time jobs to disappear rather than be created, and you're talking about beneficiaries that are available for part time work. So it wasn’t going to be a living wage anyway.

PAULA Look I don’t think so. I think that actually employers are ready to step up and pay what they think the people are worth, and I don’t think that that minimum wage is too high to be quite frank.

DUNCAN Okay, John I know you're interested watching that interview when we talked about the private insurance model, you believe that in fact the terms of reference for that working group are…

JOHN ROUGHAN – NZ H erald Columnist
From what I've read the terms of reference lead them directly to recommend an insurance model, or at least to look at an insurance model and it looks to me like the government is doing a similar exercise to what it did with GST and tax this year, with a tax working group, having a report come out early in the year that that will get us used to the idea of an insurance model of welfare.

DUNCAN Your response to that?

PAULA I would just say most definitely we are running a transparent process with what's going on with the Welfare Working Group. Yes we want the country debating it. I think that’s healthy, I think we should be, I think for too long we haven’t and exactly where that ends up I don’t think it's a bad thing.

JOHN How would you summarise the diff for people you know, when you ask them to debate an insurance model, what does it mean to people in simple terms?

PAULA I think we're going to get to that, so I think you're sort of getting one step ahead of it, what we've seen at the moment is we’ve seen the sort of issues paper identifying what the issues are. You're get to see the options paper as far as what those alternatives are and I perhaps don’t want to get ahead of that.

SIMON WILSON – Metro Magazine Editor
What you're saying Minister, there should be a debate but you're not actually defining the terms?

PAULA Well we will be, and what I would say is that the Welfare Working Group at the moment are going out there, are talking to New Zealanders, they're taking submissions, they are open to taking those suggestions from other people and they will then be putting an options paper forward, that the public can then debate, then they’ll be doing a final report. I mean quite frankly it's this government's intention to pick up whatever recommendations they want to or not, and we would take them back to the public in a campaign.

SIMON I wonder Minister what you think the underlying problem is here, you mentioned earlier in the day about there were 9000 sickness beneficiaries who could be working, or could be doing part time work. Is this about shirking to you, do you think there are people just refusing to work?

PAULA No I don’t, I actually think there are people though that have lost hope that don’t actually see the value in what they have to offer, that think that actually a welfare cheque from week to week is all that they are worth, that we're not actually putting the right training and incentives in place to help them into that. So I would say it's more one of lost hope than I think of actual laziness or not wanting to front up, and I want to back them in that. I mean I see women who just have such a low sense of self esteem that they just wonder how on earth have they got something of value to offer and employer, and I want to help them recognise that actually that actually they do have something to offer.

SIMON So supportive rather than punitive?

PAULA I see it as being absolutely supportive, but with that comes a sense of obligation, and I do want people to recognise that we have some obligations that we think they should be doing and sometimes you need a little bit of push to help them take that next step.

DUNCAN I've noticed, and we haven’t got time for it, you both pricked your ears up with this idea of Iwi providing more support.

JOHN It's an interesting one, yes and are you having any success getting iwi to take these children and discover who their whanau are?

PAULA Yeah look 52% of Maori children that are in care at the moment are with extended whanau, so we already do have that happening, I just think we could take another major step forward even in identifying families that could take children before they're actually being hurt you know, and how do we get in earlier.

DUNCAN Minister we're out of time, thank you very much indeed, thank you John, thank you Simon.

ENDS

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