Sunday 22nd August, 2010

Q+A's Paul Holmes interviews Justice Minister, Simon Power

Points of interest:
- Government signals major overhaul of liquor laws tomorrow
- Exclusive: Councils will be able to create "Local Alcohol Plans" to make liquor licences harder to get
- Local communities will have new powers to reject liquor licences based on how many are in their neighbourhood, where they are and what hours they're open
- Dry areas or 24/7 licences won't be possible, however, as they won't pass a new "reasonableness" test
- New: Government will set "default" national guidelines, including "maximum trading hours"
- Power says "no good will come" of queuing up to enter a bar at 5am, and promises action on that tomorrow
- Power again rules out excise tax, also rules out sales tax; refuses to rule out minimum price
- Supermarkets and other outlets will need to "persuade [government] that things are as pure as are being said"
- Focus of law change will be to reduce the harm caused by alcohol, especially on youth
- Justice Minister won't say he wants the price of alcohol to go up, although confirms "the government has a view" on that to be revealed tomorrow
- Power doubts Steven Joyce would drive after he'd drunk three-quarters of a bottle of wine, even though he would still be under the drink-driving limit

The interview has been transcribed below. The full length video interviews and panel discussions from this morning's Q+A can also be seen on tvnz.co.nz at, http://tvnz.co.nz/q-and-a-news

Q+A is repeated on TVNZ 7 at 9.10pm on Sunday nights and 10.10am and 2.10pm on Mondays.

SIMON POWER interviewed by PAUL HOLMES

PAUL The government's decided what they're going to do about alcohol reform and the Justice Minister Simon Power is going to announce those decisions along with the Prime Minister tomorrow. Now this follows a report from the Law Commission. Back in April it made 153 recommendations by which to reduce the harm caused by alcohol. Things like making alcohol more expensive, changes to the licensing hours, raising the purchase age. To find out where the government's heading I spoke to Justice Minister Simon Power last evening, began by asking him really what is it he wants – what he wants the reforms to achieve.

SIMON POWER – Justice Minister
Well one thing's clear, is that alcohol has become a major topic of discussion in New Zealand recently. More to the point the harm that it's causing young people, the public nuisance aspect of liquor has become a significant discussion point in New Zealand's wider communities. The announcements that the government will make tomorrow in these areas will specifically target in on those matters.

PAUL Right, so do you want to reduce, particularly by young people say, do you want to reduce alcohol consumption?

SIMON Yes we do, and more particularly we want to reduce availability.

PAUL Right, let's talk about those things shortly, but the international evidence which the Law Commission produced shows that to reduce alcohol consumption we need to reduce availability, price and promotion. So let's look at those things, availability first of all. Now you saw the big demonstration in Manukau City just recently. People there believe that alcohol is far too available. Indeed they've faced what is it, a trebling of their liquor outlets in the past 20 years. What are you going to do for them and for other people round the country who feel they're overserviced by liquor outlets?

SIMON What we will be announcing tomorrow is a change to the level of say local communities will be able to have, in the granting of liquor licenses. If a local community decides to adopt a local alcohol plan, they will be able to produce an environment which makes liquor licenses harder to get. Local communities will be able to object on the basis of things like density, locality, hours of trade. That is not the case at the moment. The availability of liquor and the ability to object to it is very narrow. We're going to widen that tomorrow.

PAUL Now fair enough, so I mean at the moment I think you've got to live within one kilometre don't you of the proposed liquor outlet, and you can really only object if you think the licensee or the proposed licensee is not a suitable person. So now there is kind of a community aspect to the objection capability?

SIMON That's exactly right, the current law is very narrow, and we have heard the public's view that local communities want more say on these issues Paul. That will be the case when the government announces its reforms tomorrow.

PAUL Right now clarify this. So it's local power for local government when it comes to liquor. Do all councils then now have to control liquor in their own districts or do they just choose whether they're going to be doing this?

SIMON No a council or area that wishes to enter into a local alcohol plan to have it's own views on density, it's own views on hours, can do that. In the event that a local community doesn't, the government will be announcing tomorrow that there will be trading hours maximised in both on and off license areas, and those will be a default position if you like to those local communities who are of the view that the process of getting a local alcohol plan together, may not be what their particular community needs.

PAUL Let me come to those hours. Let's just finish this off, because when you were on the programme last time you said, that you believe liquor licenses whether off license or bars and restaurants, Mr Power, should be harder to get and easier to lose. Is there a punitive side to what you're planning tomorrow? Is it going to be easier for real dodgy buggers to lose their liquor sales license?

SIMON When they apply for renewals, if a local area has a plan in place they will be meeting different criteria for objections to what they have met up until now Paul. So licenses will be more difficult to get because the grounds of objection by local communities will be wider.

PAUL Alright, so now the other thing is, is this a cop out by central government? It reduces central government's costs doesn't it in not having to vet someone to see if they're suitable to hold a liquor license. It's gonna make more work and more expensive work for councils.

SIMON No I don't believe so. What we've heard over the last week or so is the fact that local communities want more say. The pricings I've got is that local alcohol plans could be anywhere from 30 to $100,000 dollars. If indeed a smaller community doesn't believe that that's an area they want their local government to get into, then those national hours will stay in place, but the important thing here is more say at the front end for local communities.

PAUL Got you. Okay let's go to hours then, off license hours, restaurant, bar hours. Explain very simply what you want to change tomorrow.

SIMON Well I'm not going to announce today what those hours will be, because that'll be for the announcement on Monday. But I do think as I've said on this programme before Paul, queuing up at five o'clock in the morning in on licence premises, no good will come of that – to those individuals or to those waiting for them at home. So there is work to be announced and decisions to be announced in that area tomorrow.

PAUL Yes but if people want to go to a bar in the Viaduct on holiday in
Auckland at 4.30 in the morning, and it's a great hoot of a weekend, should you necessarily stop them?

SIMON Well that's where the balance is, and that's why what you'll see with the announcement tomorrow, is that the target is very much on harm of liquor particularly around youth Paul. And we have to balance this, because in the end a very large amount of New Zealanders are drinking moderately and responsibly, and this government is not going to be in the business of telling them they can't pick up a bottle of wine on the way home at a reasonable hour.

PAUL Okay what stops the extremes happening here? Presumably the Auckland Council will choose to decide whether the Viaduct can stay open till four in the morning or go 24 hours. What stops a particularly wowser community closing down the pubs at nine o'clock?

SIMON Well in the end the object of the new legislation which we'll be introducing to the parliament in October will have a reasonableness test around it. So the ability for local communities to say an area could be dry or 24/7 availability of liquor won't meet that reasonableness test, so again it's a matter of balancing a moderate availability of liquor whilst at the same time targeting the harm particularly for young people, and that will be the emphasis of the package tomorrow Paul.

PAUL Would you expect though as the Minister who's done all the thinking about this and is introducing new laws – would you expect that Auckland might pull the reins in a bit and close the Viaduct at about two or three in the morning. Los Angeles of course you know city of sin apparently, closes the bars about one or two in the morning, as you know.

SIMON Well indeed if the new Auckland Super City Council decides that their local alcohol plan is appropriate for that community, that'd be a matter we'd look at pretty carefully. Of course there are appeal processes involved in all of this. The important thing for Auckland I think Paul will be making sure that it's plan, if it indeed adopts one, is flexible enough to deal with different parts of Auckland and its needs as far as proliferation of the availability of liquor goes. So there may be a test which is different for the Viaduct. Two examples, off license premises in some parts of South Auckland.

PAUL During the World Cup and so forth. Alright let's come to the other part of that international evidence – price. And the Law Commission was very disturbed to find that in some places, Mr Power, you can buy booze cheaper than you can buy water. You don't want to increase the excise tax, the Prime Minister's ruled that out. So well do you agree we've got to increase the price? The international research shows that if you reduce the price of booze you increase the consumption of booze.

SIMON Well indeed that's one of the aspects that the Law Commission spoke about in a multi-pronged approached to this. We don't think excise tax is the way to go because as the Prime Minister said, liquor as opposed to tobacco which harms everybody, doesn't harm everybody, and getting that balance right…

PAUL Okay but do you want to raise the price of booze? Do you see that as an instrument by which you can reduce alcohol abuse?

SIMON I think you'll find tomorrow, the government has a view, but I can't go any further than that at this time.

PAUL Increased sales tax?

SIMON No not at this time Paul.

PAUL Minimum prices?

SIMON I'll have to let you wait until tomorrows announcement to give you some more insight into where the government's been thinking on that issue.

PAUL But I hope you will attempt to allow me to tease you out Mr Power. What about supermarkets, seen by many as the damn villain. Leanne Dalziel of course would take all liquor sales off supermarkets, and we know Mr Power that supermarkets use booze, wine particularly, but all kinds of liquor, as a loss leader. Is that going to be allowed to continue?

SIMON We will be making some signals when we announce tomorrow, that there will be some work that needs to be done by some of these liquor outlets to persuade us that things are as pure as are being said. Having said that no the government is not in the business, as Ms Dalziel would suggest, of removing liquor from supermarkets, and we have to again be reasonable about what the public have come to expect about being able to pick up a bottle of wine at the time they do their shopping on the way home.

PAUL Alright the other thing is promotion of course on these three topics. Are you going to stop liquor advertising, the Tui billboard's promotion, sponsorship?

SIMON We'll be saying something about that tomorrow.

PAUL Are you hot on those yourself?

SIMON Oh look I think again the specific targeting of young people is something that's exercised my mind Paul, I can't go any further than that on your programme today.

PAUL Very good indeed. Let us get now to the difficult matter of the driving limit. There's going to be no change. Can I suggest to you Mr Power, your position and the government's position, on the amount of alcohol you're allowed in your blood when you go driving in this country is quite simply patently ridiculous.

SIMON Well Minister Joyce and the Prime Minister have both said that there is still work to do in this area.

PAUL Minister Joyce is the very man who came to the realisation some months back that he's allowed to drink three quarters of a bottle of wine before he gets behind the wheel of a car. He said at the time that is ridiculous. Are you saying to me your government with him having said that, is going to do nothing about the driving limit?

SIMON No, we're not doing nothing. The Minister has made it perfectly clear Paul there is more work to be done in this area and he has not ruled it out in the long term but has said he wants more information to hand.

PAUL Mr Paul Power, with respect, what work is there to be done in this area? There are some 60 international surveys showing that essentially allowing .08 instead of say .03 is essentially allowing your population to drive drunk.

SIMON Well Mr Joyce has addressed those questions in a variety of fora and I back him in that position.

PAUL Yes he's got a few ideas, so a recidivist drink driver cannot have any alcohol in the body under 20. You will not be able to have any alcohol in the body, these kind of things. Too complicated aren't they Simon? Too complicated?

SIMON No, I think they're very good tools, and again the thing that I like about the package that's been promoted by the government and by Mr Joyce is it specifically has a target around young people, and I think that's a very very good place to start.

PAUL Yeah but Mr Power, we've had a couple of newspapers recently put their reporters, you know gave them a few beers after work, and we have some fellows are able to drink 8, 9, 10 stubbies, and get behind the wheel of a car. They're still apparently legal. Would you get behind the wheel of a car with Steven Joyce, if he'd packed away three quarters of a bottle of Chardonnay? Would you get behind the wheel of a car with him yes or nop?

SIMON Well I mean I wouldn't get behind the wheel of a car with anybody who I considered to be in a less than suitable state. Whether that is scientific evidence or the measurements that are taken by the authorities …

PAUL Simon, if Mr Joyce had drunk three quarters of a bottle of wine would you get into a car with him?

SIMON I doubt he'd drive Paul.

PAUL Exactly. You know why? He knows he should be over the limit. Isn't that it?

SIMON Well no, what he's saying is that people are making their own decisions about this and in the end we have to work pretty hard to make sure that before we make decisions that are that broad we have the information to hand, and I back him in that decision Paul.

PAUL I thank you very much for your time and we look forward to the announcements tomorrow.

SIMON Thank you Paul.

ENDS

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