Q+A: Shane Taurima Interviews Paula Bennett
Sunday 29th April, 2012
Shane Taurima
Interviews Paula Bennett
Social
Development Minister Paula Bennett admits it’s hard for
young people to find work. “We’re most certainly seeing
more young people having a hard time finding work, without a
doubt.”
Minister says there’s not a job for
everyone that would want one right now.
She’s
not proud of the 20% rise in the number of young people not
in employment, education or training (NEET’s) but “I’m
really proud of my record to date of what I’ve done”
Bennett: Things would be significantly worse if
we hadn’t made the changes we did.
On why
it’s been hard for young people to get jobs: They’re the
ones employers are less likely to take on when things start
getting tighter, and that, without a doubt, is what we’ve
seen.
On the 83,000 young people not in
employment, education or training (NEET’s): Bennett would
argue there’d be 20,000 more in that category had it not
been for the Government’s work over the last three years.
Minister expects the 83,000 NEET’s to drop over
the next 12 months.
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Q+A
SHANE
TAURIMA INTERVIEWS PAULA BENNETT
SHANE TAURIMA
Thank you, Minister, for joining us. 83,000 young people
aged between 15-24 not in education, employment or training.
Now, that’s roughly the population of Palmerston North
doing nothing What are you doing about it?
PAULA BENNETT – Social Development Minister
Yeah, a lot. So when you look at the past three years and
the youth package that we’ve put in there, you see nearly
20,000 young people involved in Community Max or Job Ops
programmes. Results from them have been really significant
and better than we thought they would be, to be quite frank.
We’ve seen more investment going in. We’re seeing this
next step of reforms that are going to be focussing on them
more. We’re seeing the unemployment rate of benefit go
down, so we sort of peaked in January 2010, 23,500 young
people 18-24 on benefit. We’re now at about 15,500.
SHANE So you’re
saying you’re doing a lot. But the numbers have gone up,
minister. It’s increased by 20% since you took office.
PAULA Well,
we’ve been in the worst recession ever, and the facts are
that unfortunately it’s our young people that are always
hit hardest by a recession.
SHANE And it’s
interesting that you raised the recession, because every
time you’re on Q&A and we’ve asked you questions like
these, you’ve blamed the recession, and yet the recession
ended back in 2009. Three and a half years later, we’ve
got 83,000 young people doing nothing.
PAULA Yeah, but what
we did see was the effects of that continue, and
particularly for young people. When I became the minister in
late 2008, we’d had three quarters where that had gone up,
and that continued because there were fewer jobs. There’s
just no debating that. So fewer jobs, fewer opportunities.
So now we are taking a completely new focus with these
reforms that are coming up as to how we do tackle that.
SHANE Is that
the reason for the rise? Fewer jobs?
PAULA Most certainly.
SHANE 20%.
Because as I said, since you’ve been minister, 20% it’s
gone up. That’s why we’re looking at the population of
Palmerston North doing nothing.
PAULA Yeah. We’re
most certainly seeing more young people having a hard time
finding work, without a doubt. We’ve seen more go into
training, and that’s been the effects of that recession. I
mean, I just can’t-
SHANE Is it not your
responsibility, though?
PAULA Young people
are my responsibility, particularly those that are
struggling and in the welfare system and those that are not
in education, employment and training, and I’m really
proud of my record to date of what I’ve done, but, boy, am
I-
SHANE Are
you proud of the 20% increase, though?
PAULA Of course I’m
not, but I actually- It’s business that makes those jobs
out there. We’ve been supporting them. We’ve seen that
the number of youth unemployed come down.
SHANE So you’re not
proud of the 20% increase, but you are proud. What are you
proud of when we’ve got 83,000 young people doing nothing?
PAULA Yeah.
Well, let’s keep it in perspective. Between 2004 and 2008
we had anywhere between 10% and 12% of young people not in
education, employment or training. We currently have 13%. So
in the best of times that we saw in that time, we still had
these young people not connected to either training or the
workforce. So we have had to turn around and try and stem
that tide of young people not achieving, and we have,
against all the odds, actually managed to do that, even
though we’ve seen that-
SHANE But you
haven’t turned it around, Minister, have you? Because my
point again, I go back to it - 20%, since you’ve been
minister, it’s gone up. You’ve got more people doing
absolutely nothing under your watch. You haven’t turned it
around.
PAULA
Well, I would argue to you that it would be significantly
worse if we had not made the changes that we did and put the
focus on those young people. And I just need to give you
statistics like 20,000 that have been through Job Ops and
Community Max. For Job Ops alone, 17,000 of them went
through that. 92% of them went into work.
SHANE But obviously
it’s not enough, though, is it, because it’s gone up 20%
over the last, what, three and a half years, and in the last
year itself it’s gone up by 5%.
PAULA That depends at
what you’re looking at.
SHANE I’m looking
at the 83,000. 83,000 young people who are not in education,
employment or training. Roughly the size, the population of
Palmerston North. It’s criminal.
PAULA So let’s go
back to those-
SHANE
It’s criminal, isn’t it?
PAULA I’m not going
to get a bit emotive like you are at the moment. So let’s
go to 16- or 17-year-olds-
SHANE
But those are the facts, though.
PAULA Well, we do
need to deal with the facts. So you get these 16-and
17-year-olds, of which we have anywhere between 10,000 and
14,000 that are not in education, employment and training,
and I can tell you it’s been pretty much the same numbers
for the last 15 years.
SHANE
Can I go back to the 83,000, cos that’s
what I’m focussing on.
PAULA Yeah, but
you’ve gotta get to the beginning, Shane. So this is- I
think you’re right-
SHANE
Yeah, but I want to go to the 83,000, and I
want to know, when can we expect to see that figure coming
down?
PAULA
Well, this is what part of the reforms are.
SHANE But when?
PAULA So if
you let me explain-
SHANE Can you answer
that question, though? When?
PAULA Well, let me
explain, because this is exactly the sort of point, cos
you’ve gotta look at who they are-
SHANE But when,
though, Minister? When can we start to see the 83,000 come
down?
PAULA
Yeah, well, I think that you’re already seeing fewer on
unemployment benefit-
SHANE But we’re not
seeing that go down, though, Minister. We’re seeing it go
up.
PAULA We
are seeing the unemployment benefit go down.
SHANE No, the 83,000
young people doing nothing. When can we expect to see that
go down?
PAULA
Yeah, well, I think we’re already seeing the unemployment
benefit-
SHANE
83,000, though, Minister, that’s the figure we’re
concentrating on. Not the unemployment benefit. Those who
are doing nothing. When can we expect to see that figure
drop?
PAULA
Yeah, well, you’re already seeing it with the youth
guarantee that’s gone in, so-
SHANE But we’re not
seeing that figure drop, though, Minister. When will we
start to see- Please, with respect, when can we start to see
that figure go down? Because that’s the concern - 83,000
people doing nothing. When can we start to see that number
coming down? It’s a fairly straight-forward question.
PAULA Yeah, it
is, and I’m just going to explain to you what we’re
doing, how long those reforms will take to get in, what
we’ve been doing in the past and the successes that
we’ve been having. And I just think that you would see
significantly more young people if we weren’t having the
kind of initiatives that we do. You know, young people are
disproportionately affected when a recession hits. They
haven’t got the experience. They’re the ones that
employers are less likely to take on when things start
getting tighter, and that, without a doubt, is what we’ve
seen. So we have to try and make these young people
valuable, hence doing something like Job Ops, which puts a
$5000 work subsidy around those young people. I would argue
to you, Shane, that you would have 20,000 more that are NEET
if it was not for what this government has done in
supporting those young people over the last three years.
SHANE So going
back to the 83,000, will it be down in, say, 12 months’
time? Will we see that figure drop?
PAULA Yeah, we
certainly expect it to drop, particularly with the changes
that we are making. But let’s talk about the reforms,
because I think this is what’s-
SHANE The 83,000,
though, because I’ve given you quite a bit of time to talk
about those reforms, and I want to go back to my initial
question, which is when will we start to see these drop? You
say in 12 months’ time we’ll see it drop. By how much,
please?
PAULA
Yeah, look, I’m not prepared to do that, so what you need
to listen to-
SHANE Because?
PAULA Because you
need to look at the 16- and 17-year-olds and for the very
first time our focus is keenly going on them. So what we had
to do was look at the benefit system and say who is going on
benefit when they turn 18? You have around 14,000 16- and
17-year-olds that are not in education or employment or
training. 90% of them will go on benefit when they turn 18.
So we are putting significantly more money on them. We’ve
just gone through a request for proposal from those youth
services-
SHANE Because you
want to get them into work?
PAULA Or training, or
education. So if we get them engaged, if we give them the
right skills and the right training, if we see a lift in the
economy and those jobs coming on as we are slowly starting
to see and it’s making a difference, then, yes, we will
bring those numbers down.
SHANE Can I ask you
about work, though? Do you think that there is a job out
there for all these young people who really really want a
job? Is there a job out there for young people who really
want a job?
PAULA No. There’s
not a job for everyone that would want one right now, or
else we wouldn’t have the unemployment figures that we do.
SHANE And so
who’s to blame for that? Does that mean that there’s not
enough jobs?
PAULA Well, sure. Of
course there’s not enough jobs right now for everybody
that wants them. But we also see significant areas where
there are, and young people are not connected properly. So,
for example, I was in Dargaville on Friday. I had a whole
bunch of employers that were saying, ‘We have jobs.
We’re not taking on young people. Why aren’t we taking
them on? It’s because they haven’t got the kind of
training that we need. It’s because we see them as high
risk.’ So then as Minister I turn around and say, well,
how can I make them less risky, if you like. How can I put
that pre-employment training in? How can I give you the kind
of support that means those young people will turn up for
those jobs? And that’s the reforms that we’re putting
through.
SHANE
So if there aren’t enough jobs there, is it your
responsibility to create those jobs?
PAULA Well, we have
in some aspects, as far as putting the subsidies next to
young people that makes them- But the only way a kid in West
Auckland is going to get a job tomorrow is if a business
decides to employ them, yeah?
SHANE What about the
government, though? Does the government have a
responsibility to create jobs, to ensure that there are jobs
for these young people?
PAULA We have a
responsibility to support businesses and get them in the
right place so that they will take on these young people.
Now, should we be giving them more support up front, making
sure that they have got the right kind of skills and
training and are able to get into them, and that they’re
seen as an asset to that business? Absolutely. But,
actually, government creating jobs, as they try to do in the
2000s, has not worked for these young people, because when
things got tough, they fell out.
SHANE Is that because
the government isn’t creating any new employment? Because
it hasn’t worked?
PAULA That’s not
true. We are supporting businesses whom are creating jobs.
And in the last year alone, I have seen the unemployment
benefit decrease by about 18,000 people. That says that we
have more jobs now than we did a year ago, more people going
into them. We have a real job to get these young people-
SHANE So the
unemployment figures may have dropped, but at the end of the
day, those who are doing nothing, young people who are doing
nothing, absolutely nothing, has gone up.
PAULA Yep, so what
you’ve seen is the real effects of them dropping out of
school, yeah, too soon, so not coming out with the right
kind of educational attainment. So we have made significant
changes there, but there are more to be done. Then what we
need to do is pick them up straight away. So what happens at
the moment and has happened in the past is that those young
people there, um, the education system doesn’t have to
tell us when they’ve dropped out of school in real time.
We lose them. The longer they are disengaged, the more
likely they are to stay disengaged for longer periods of
time.
SHANE
These reforms that are targeting our young people. Can you
tell me- Because you’ve said that you want to save,
roughly, a billion dollars over the next four years with
these welfare reforms. How much of that one billion is going
to be as a result of these reforms targeting young people?
PAULA Well,
we’re going to spend more on them, OK, so we’re also
spending $130 million extra a year at least. So we’re
actually going to spend more on these young people. What
you’ve gotta look at, Shane, is they won’t be on benefit
over a longer period of time because of-
SHANE So over the
next four years, if you’re spending more, then you won’t
be saving anything?
PAULA But the billion
dollars is not just about the young people. Those savings
are also coming from those on other benefits-
SHANE So that would
then suggest that you’re not going to save any money over
the next four years as a result of these reforms.
PAULA No, we
certainly have got projections that we believe we will be
making savings over the next four years.
SHANE How much as a
result of these targets for young people?
PAULA Well, it’s a
combination of young people and all of the suite of reforms-
SHANE But you
can’t tell us specifics around young people?
PAULA No, I can’t
give you that exact number off the top of my head, but a
billion dollars over four years but spending $130+ million
more in supporting them up front. It makes sense.
SHANE Let’s look at
the breakdown of the current welfare spend. If we take, for
example, the unemployment benefit, it makes up roughly 4.4%
of the current spend. DPB makes up 8.2%. Minister, we both
know what the biggest single item is - super. Super makes up
a whopping 41.3% of the welfare bill. Why are you refusing
to look at super when it is far and away the biggest cost of
the welfare state?
PAULA Because
actually it’s about- I don’t see super as a welfare
benefit, I see it actually as a right of New Zealanders that
have done it. And so we’re not looking at super, but we
are looking at the welfare bill itself, which is-
SHANE So take for
example the unemployment benefit. Is that not a right?
PAULA Well, it
is if you’re out of work, but we need to put the right
kind of services around those people to see them getting
into work.
SHANE So the
unemployment benefit is a right. Super is a right. You’re
prepared to change the unemployment benefit but not super.
PAULA That’s
right.
SHANE
Because?
PAULA
Because we’re focussing on those people that could and
should be in work, and that’s exactly where New Zealanders
would expect it to be. So superannuation is for those over
65, as you well know, that have got-
SHANE Do you think
65-year-olds, as an example, should be in work?
PAULA I think some
are and some aren’t and that’s their choice.
SHANE But do you
think they should be in work?
PAULA This is a great
country. I think some should be and some shouldn’t be. It
should be their choice.
SHANE Can I just say,
because if you were to raise the super age from 65, which it
is currently, to 67, you would save $1.5 billion a year.
That’s more than the savings you hope to make with all of
these reforms over the next four years.
PAULA So what I think
you’re missing, Shane, is the equation of-
SHANE No, let’s go
back to the savings, though, Minister. $1.5 billion that you
would save.
PAULA You’re
comparing a 65- or 66-year-old to an 18- or 19-year-old
that’s out of work, and I would say to you that they are
completely different. So someone that’s 66 and not in work
and is on super, actually they’re doing probably OK in
life.
SHANE
Well, I’m actually comparing them with a 64-year-old and a
63-year-old and 62-year-old too, aren’t I?
PAULA Well, should we
be looking at those young ones that actually need our
support and should be and could be in work and put our
support around them? That’s where I’m focussing on. So
yes, some of it will be monetary savings, but that’s not
what I’m focussed on. It is the loss of opportunity, the
loss of hope, and I just think young people going on to
benefit early is absolutely wrong, and the more we can turn
that around, that’s where our focus should be. So will we
make savings? Yes, and that’s kind of an add-on to it, but
it’s actually the social cost of seeing too many people on
benefit over long periods of time that is actually what is
driving us to make these changes.
SHANE So when are we
going to see some results, though, Minister? When will we
see the reduction in these numbers? Go back to the 83,000
figure. 83,000 young people doing absolutely nothing. When
will we start to see results? When?
PAULA Yeah. So what
you see is those that are on the unemployment benefit-
SHANE When
will we start to see results?
PAULA They’re the
ones that are the hardest hit, yeah? We are already seeing
results for them.
SHANE We’re not
seeing results-
PAULA We are. We have
fewer-
SHANE
We are not seeing fewer people doing nothing, Minister.
PAULA We are
actually seeing more young people in work now than there
were two years ago, and that, Shane, is a fact.
SHANE And let’s end
it there. Paula Bennett, Minister, thank you very much for
your time this morning.
PAULA Thank you.