Q+A: Paul Holmes Interviews Te Ururoa Flavell
Paul Holmes Interviews Te Ururoa
Flavell
Maori Party MP says police
admission they weren’t aware of anyone specifically
targeted by Urewera group is another in a “series of
errors”
Police show “lack of understanding of
what happened” and its impact on race
relations
“Not one” Tuhoe person has ever said
the police actions were justified, despite Police
Commissioner’s statements (http://tvnz.co.nz/q-and-a-news/police-commissioner-peter-marshall-video-4901724)
Contrasts
Urewera Four sentence with man convicted two years ago for
unlawful possession of military-style weapons, grenade
launcher and anti-personnel mine – he got ordered to pay
St John’s Ambulance $5000. “You’ve got to measure it
up”
Tuhoe should be proud, not ashamed –
Marshall’s comments “way out of
order”
Confident “nothing sinister” going on
at training camps, but admits not asking those
involved
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Q+A
PAUL
HOLMES INTERVIEWS TE URUROA
FLAVELL
PAUL
HOLMES
We’ve heard the police view of Operation Eight and the
danger posed by Tame Iti and his cronies. What does the
Maori Party’s Te Ururoa Flavell make of what the
Commissioner was saying? The Waiariki MP is live with us in
our Rotorua studio. Kia ora, good
morning.
TE URUROA FLAVELL – Maori Party
MP
Kia ora,
Paul.
PAUL
Interesting, isn’t it - Commissioner Marshall was saying
that police had no idea what the targets were, but they went
in anyway. Does that strike you as odd?
TE
URUROA
Well, it does strike me as odd, and it sort of adds to the
picture that’s been developed over these last four or five
years ever since this whole issue hit the nation that there
had been a series of errors, I believe. A series of- A lack
of understanding about what happened there, and even this
whole case about what a huge impact it’s had on the state
of the nation, and particularly around race relations, I
might add, as well.
PAUL
Yeah, but go back to what they were doing up there in the
bush. The police were sure that this crowd were up to no
good. They had them on tape. They were sure that lives and
property were in danger. People were talking about killing,
damage to buildings and so forth. What were they- Again,
this is the big question. What were those guys doing up in
the bush?
TE
URUROA
Oh, look, it’s not for me to answer that, Paul. I don’t
know.
PAUL
Well, have you asked questions about what they were
doing?
TE URUROA
Say that
again?
PAUL
Well, have you asked Tame Iti what the hell they were
doing?
TE URUROA
No, I haven’t. I haven’t asked him about what he’s
done and what he did, but I do know a number of the people
that were involved up there, and, look, we’ve got people
who are professionals They’ve been health workers.
They’ve worked alongside Tame at the Tuhoe Hauora. They
had their own lives to go about. And I’m very convinced
myself about the number that I know that there was nothing
sinister going on at all.
PAUL The
Police Commissioner said that elders there in the Ureweras
were worried about- they think that the police action was
justified. They were worried for themselves and their
community. Do you accept that?
TE
URUROA
I don’t know about that, but I’ll say this - ever since
this issue rolled out, there has not been not one Tuhoe
person I’ve ever come across that said that their actions
were justified. And in fact the gentleman Mr Paki Nikora
that the Commissioner talked about earlier was actually on a
hikoi on the day that the kohanga reo went through the
Whakatane community protesting about the action that
happened.
PAUL
Again, though, go back to this High Court judge. He has
lived with this whole affair for months on end, and he said
he believed democracy was at risk. He had no hesitation in
giving Tame Iti this two and a half years I mean, he must
know what was going on, mustn’t he?
TE
URUROA
Well, he wasn’t there, but what he did do was dispel the
whole myth that there’s some sort of view about terrorism
going on, and that the charges have been, to all intents and
purposes, minimised to issues about firearms. Now, in
looking at that, I’m disappointed about the outcome of the
judge’s determination about what’ll happen in two and a
half years, on the basis that number one, Tame and Te
Rangikaiwhiria had been about the community for about the
last two and a half years and there had been no issues about
trying to take over the government at all. Number two, that
there’s a precedent in terms of other ways of dealing with
firearms charges, and the information I got was for
prohibited and regulated weapons and explosives offences.
151 for imprisonment - that’s the number of people
who’ve been imprisoned; 167 for 2010, just last year. And
the last one, Paul, is that about two years ago a gentleman
by the name of Bernard Shapiro, he had unlawful possession
of two military style semi-automatic rifles, thunderflash
explosives, power gel explosives, eight sticks, two military
flares, a smoke grenade, a grenade launcher, an
anti-personnel mine; he pleaded not guilty. He’s found
guilty on seven of the eight charges. And what does he get?
He gets asked to pay $5000 to the St John’s Ambulance.
You’ve gotta measure it up on those sorts of
terms.
PAUL
Well, a friend of mine on Friday was making a comparison
between what the captain of the Rena got - seven months -
and Tame Iti’s two and a half years. Do you believe that
the police would ever act as they did that day in Remuera or
Parnell, as Shane was asking?
TE
URUROA
Ah, that’s an issue for them to consider, but all I can
say is this - that their actions on that day were way over
the top, and in hindsight, as we look back, there’s been a
comedy of errors. I mean, I’ve got statements right here,
Paul, from people who are mothers with young children who
were taken out by the armed offenders squad on that day,
locked away for eight hours without any questioning and
food, and the children with them as well in separate rooms.
There’s umpteen stories like that. I’ve had constituents
come to me about being basically ostracised in their own
communities in Whakatane, I’m talking about. You know,
what we’ve forgotten is there’s sort of two parts here.
One is to do with those people who actually had to front
this thing for the last three or four years, and those in
the community - and I’m a little distressed about the
Commissioner’s point about saying that Tuhoe should be
ashamed - I don’t think so. In fact, Tuhoe should be
proud, and will be proud, obviously, about themselves as a
nation. But to throw those sorts of accusations round is
well out of
order.
PAUL
The Commissioner said he was looking forward to being
invited back. Do you think he will be?
TE
URUROA
Well, I like to think that he was way out of line, for
starters, on issuing an apology on the day that Tame Iti
gets two and a half years prison, for goodness sake. So
that’s for Tuhoe to consider whether he gets back into
that community.
PAUL
Mr Flavell, thank you very much indeed for your
time.
ENDS