The Nation: Immigration Minister Iain Lees-Galloway
On Newshub Nation: Lisa Owen interviews Immigration Minister Iain Lees-Galloway
Lisa
Owen: The Immigration Minister has just announced plans to
crack down on post-study work rights for international
students. It’s part of Labour’s plan to turn down the
tap on immigration by about 20,000 to 30,000 people a year.
Immigration Minister Iain Lees-Galloway joins me now. Good
morning,
Minister.
Iain
Lees-Galloway: Morning, Lisa.
How
exactly are you cracking down on international
students?
So, what we really want to
do is make sure that students are getting a good education
and they’re getting a good experience here in New Zealand.
And we’ve been really concerned about the exploitation of
international students when they’re working here after
they’ve finished their studying. So for students who are
studying at degree level or higher, they will continue to
get three years of post-study work rights, and, actually,
that’ll be a much more straightforward process for those
students than it has been in the past. But for students who
are studying at below degree level, we’re reducing their
post-study work rights to one year. If those students want
to carry on in New Zealand, then, obviously, they’ve got
the opportunity to apply for different visas, but they will
be labour-market-tested visas, and they’ll need to
demonstrate that they’ve got skills that are in demand
here in New Zealand.
How does this fix the
exploitation problem?
So, one aspect
of the Post Study Work Visas under the current settings is
that after the first year, students have to demonstrate that
they’re in a job that is relevant to the area that they
have studied. Unfortunately, what’s resulted from that is
employers saying to those students, ‘Look, I’ll enhance
your job description, or I’ll try to make it look like
you’re working in an area that you’ve studied, and in
return for that, I expect a big payment.’ So a lot of
students are going into those jobs, they’re getting their
wages, and then they’re walked down to the ATM, they take
a lot of cash out and pay that money straight back to the
employer. That’s the kind of exploitation that we’ve
seen.
Yeah. So they’re not going to be
beholden to a single employer. That’s the
point.
That’s
right.
If you’re under two years with your
qualification – any qualifications under two years –
you’re out in the cold, yeah?
Well,
that’s right. We’re saying to people we want to
encourage people into high-quality courses that are actually
going to set them up with skills that are either going to be
of value to them here in New Zealand or of value to them in
other parts of the world as well.
And you
can’t have high quality under two
years?
Well, again, as I say, if
you’ve studied for less than two years and you want to
carry on here in New Zealand, then there’s the opportunity
to apply for a work-tested visa. So if you’re studying a
skill that’s in demand in New Zealand, then there’s that
opportunity. But if you’re just coming and studying a
generic business course—
Yeah, I was going
to say— Give us some examples. What kind of courses are
you cutting out with that under-two-year
mark?
So, as an example, there used
to be three business schools in Te Puke. Now, I’m glad to
say that under the current settings, those have been able to
be shut down. Those business schools were teaching generic
business skills, but, actually, what they were doing was
making sure that those students were available to go and
work on kiwi-fruit orchards.
Okay, so, people
were rorting the system, in your
view.
That’s
right.
So, at the moment, we are getting about
37,000 new students turning up each year. How many will this
affect? How many do you think won’t come as a result of
these changes?
Yeah, so, we think it
will affect between 12,000 and 16,000 students. Now, when we
say ‘affect’—
Sorry, say that
again.
12,000 and
16,000.
Right.
Now,
when we say ‘affect’, we think there will be three
effects. One is some people will decide not to come – that
they won’t see that easy path to residency and will decide
not to come. Some, of course, may choose to study at degree
level instead, and we think that’s good. That’s going to
be good for them, and it’s good for our education system,
because it’s a better-value proposition for us and for the
student. And some students, of course, will come, they’ll
study, but they’ll be going home a lot sooner than they
are at the moment.
So you can’t really model
how many will not turn up. What specific percentage of that,
up to 16,000, just won’t bother turning
up?
It is hard to say exactly how
many simply won’t turn up, but what we’re trying to
achieve here is an improvement in our immigration settings
– both to improve outcomes for the students themselves and
to make sure that our export education proposition is a more
high-value one. We’re not that fixated on the numbers in
terms of how many students actually com here; what we’re
interested in is improving our immigration settings and
improving our export education market.
But as
a byproduct– And you stated during the election campaign
that you were wanting to bring those overall numbers down.
So as a byproduct of making these changes – in your view,
to get to a higher-quality product – you’re also
achieving the secondary goal of lowering
numbers.
We do anticipate that
numbers will come down, and we’ve actually already seen
that. A lot of what’s driving the reduction in permanent
long-term migration right now is people coming to the end of
their student visa pathway and finding that there is no
pathway to residency and heading home. We anticipate that
this will reduce the numbers further, but our focus is on
improving the education system and on improving our
immigration settings.
Okay, so it’s a
double-edged sword, because export education is worth almost
$4.5 billion. So how much is this going to cost us in lost
revenue?
Well, actually, it’s not
about bums on seats. It’s not about numbers; we’re
trying to get a better-value proposition here. So we
anticipate that we’ll see more people going into
higher-value courses—
But it is going to
cost us, isn’t it, Minister? We’re going to lose some
revenue from this. And how much is it? I’m sure you’ve
done the modelling.
Look, there is
some modelling that suggests it could be around $260
million. That’s, as you say, out of an industry that’s
worth 4.5 billion.
And that’s the best-case
scenario number, isn’t it? That was the advice to you –
that that’s the best-case scenario that you will lose just
that amount. But it could have flow-on effects to tertiary
education. You can’t guarantee that won’t
happen.
It’s one scenario. But
let’s look at where those cuts are going to happen.
They’re going to happen amongst the low-quality courses,
the courses where students have been getting an education
that isn’t of much value to them and where they have been
ripe for exploitation by unscrupulous agents, providers,
employers. Yeah, we need to knock out that exploitation, and
we also need to demonstrate to prospective students that
there is a real value proposition in New Zealand, that if
they study courses that provide them with skills that are
going to help them thrive here in New Zealand or if they
study at a higher level, there’s really good opportunities
for them there.
Won’t it just push some
people to work illegally, though?
I
doubt it. I think you’ll have people working under the one
year, where they’ve got open work visas. There’s not
many criteria there that they have to meet, so it makes it
more likely that they’re going to be working legally, and
after that one year, they then have to, if they want to work
further in New Zealand, go through a labour market test. I
think those tests are reasonably rigorous. That’s the next
area of work for us — is strengthening the labour market
test and strengthening other visa criteria that require work
testing. We want to make sure we’ve got those settings
right as well.
All right. I want to come to
other parts of immigration shortly, but businesses will go
to the wall over these changes, won’t
they?
The only providers who need to
be concerned are the ones who are offering a low-quality
proposition to their students. If they’re in the business
of pretending to provide an education in order to wrought
the immigration system, they may have a problem on their
hands, but the high-quality providers — and it doesn’t
matter what sector they’re in, whether they’re
high-quality universities, whether they’re high-quality
PTEs or polytechnics — they’ll thrive under this
policy.
Okay, so are you saying the only
people, the only businesses that will fail as a result of
this are the dodgy ones?
I’m very
confident that that’s the case, yes.
Because
in 2016, 85 per cent of students studying at private
training institutes were below the two-year training period
— studying two years or less.
And
that’s why we’re saying to those providers they need to
be providing a high-quality education that’s of
value—
So are they all dodgy, those ones?
They are all rorting the
system?
We’re saying to them
we’re putting criteria in place that encourage them to
provide a high-quality education for their students, and if
their students want an opportunity to continue on in New
Zealand, if they’re looking for residency as their
long-term goal, then they need to be studying in an area
that’s actually in demand in New Zealand so they can
contribute to our society and our economy.
So
if they fold it’s because they were
substandard?
I think so. I think only
those substandard providers—
Do you know how
many will, though? How many jobs will be lost? How many of
those institutes?
I don’t know how
many providers are going to look at the signal that we’re
sending and say, “We’re going to lift our game.” I
hope they will. I hope providers will—
Have
you been given any estimates or any modelling on
that?
Well, it’s up to providers to
make that decision for themselves. If they want to provide a
high-quality offer to their students, then they’ll thrive.
If they don’t want to make those changes, then they may
struggle.
So you’ve been given no figure of
the number of businesses that could go out
of…?
Well, it’s very hard to
predict what people’s behaviour is going to be. If they
respond positively to these changes, they’ll do
fine.
You want to encourage us as a top-tier
education destination, but, quite frankly, that’s not how
we’re seen overseas at the moment, and all advice to you
is that we do not have the comparable level of brand
recognition at the high end. Are you confident that we
can?
That’s why we’re retaining
some work rights — so that they can be part of the
package. We know that when students are looking around for
where they will study, they are looking not only at the
education that they’re able to receive, but also at what
work rights they get whilst they’re studying and after
they’re studying, and that’s why we have retained some
work rights, that one year for people who are studying below
degree level, and actually, that’s why we’ve made it
more straight—
So you’re easing them into
it.
That’s why we’ve made it more
straightforward and simplified for students who are studying
at degree level and higher. So it is part of the package,
but we need to make sure that the focus is on getting a
quality education.
So we should tell people
that this does not affect anyone who is studying currently;
it’s only new people coming in,
right?
That’s
right.
So what about work rights while they
are studying? Because international students can study
during their course year, they can work full-time in the
holidays, etcetera. Are you going to take a look at
that?
That’s an area that we’re
doing some work on right now, and I’m expecting to get
some advice back from MBIE on that before the end of this
year.
Do you anticipate changes
there?
We’ll look at the advice,
and we’ll do some consultation. I have to
say—
You’ve been here a while now, so you
must have a bit of an idea. What are you
thinking?
Look, the previous
government, they left it to the last minute, but they did
make some changes, and those changes are starting to flow
through now. So we need to be cognisant of those changes and
the impact that they are having on the international
education market and make sure that any future changes we
make are tailored to supporting—
But
you’re looking at making changes to in-work rights while
you study?
It’s something that
we’re examining right now, yes.
Okay,
we’ve got about 11,000 workers who come from overseas for
seasonal work every year, right? And those businesses have
been crying out for more workers. A lot of students take
low-skill jobs, right? So, picking and service industry
stuff. In terms of the seasonal work, are you going to raise
the quota for the number of people who can come
in?
We are looking at the RSE quota,
if that’s what you’re talking about. We are looking at
the RSE quota to make sure that that continues to be fit for
purpose. The other thing that we’re looking at
is—
Do you think it is? What’s your gut
feeling?
Oh, look, I think that the
RSE scheme works well. And each year, we need to re-examine
the quota and look at current conditions and make sure that
it’s working well.
Three notices have been
issued this year, haven’t they? For shortage of labour in
those industries? Does that tell you that you need to up the
quota on the RSE?
Well, it certainly
tells me that we need a more regionalised approach to our
immigration system. We need a system which can better
respond to the individual needs of each region around the
country. For a small country, our regions are actually
incredibly diverse, and their needs are very different. So
we’re looking at the RSE scheme, we’re looking at the
quota — that’s constantly under
review—
So there’s potential for that to
go up? Because the kiwifruit industry has said that they
would like double what they
get.
There’s potential for it. And
there’s also potential for other changes around the
transparency of the decision-making and the certainty that
employers get into the future around how many people
they’re going to be able to access.
We’re
very short of service workers, including aged care workers,
right? And over the next three years, it’s estimated that
we’re going to need about 220,000 extra service workers.
They’re not on the skills shortage list — the aged care
workers. They won’t meet the income thresholds. How are
you going to address that?
These
skill shortages have to be approached through a number of
different avenues. Immigration isn’t the only solution. We
have a lot of people in New Zealand who want more work than
what they’re currently getting or want a different kind of
work—
So you can do it without opening the
gates to more immigrants?
As I say,
it has to be a range of solutions. So part of it has to be
the education system; part of it has to be working alongside
those industries to make sure they’re creating training
opportunities for people to be able to get in to those jobs
and get the skills for those jobs; part of it will be
immigration, absolutely. But for me, I want to see that
employers are offering a premium, in terms of their terms
and conditions. If they’re short on staff, they need to be
making the job as attractive as possible. I want to see them
invested in training, and I want to see a record of good
employment practices in those industries. When we see all of
those things, and if people are still short of the staff
that they need, the immigration system absolutely should be
there to be part of the solution.
All right,
thanks for joining us this morning, Immigration Minister Ian
Lees-Galloway.
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