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Sir John Kirwan Talks To Guyon Espiner About Mental Health: 'Men Are S***. We Are Still Struggling Now'
Richard Larsen, Producer - 30' with Guyon Espiner
In the latest episode of 30' with Guyon Espiner Sir John Kirwan challenges Guyon on his own mental health, and reveals what life was like as a young All Black dealing with the onset of depression.
Mental health and alcohol issues among high-profile athletes are a reflection of New Zealand's wider cultural problems, All Black legend Sir John Kirwan says.
In a wide-ranging interview with RNZ's Guyon Espiner, Sir John laid bare how his own experiences with clinical depression could be traced back to his time in the All Blacks.
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He recounted feeling like an imposter despite phenomenal success on the rugby field, wondering "when am I going to be dropped?"
Kirwan played 63 test matches for the All Blacks in the 1980s and 1990s, and was a pivotal member of the 1987 World Cup-winning side.
Despite the team's success, they were "very introverted", he said.
"You wouldn't show your emotions. We weren't allowed to celebrate when we scored a try, because if you did, you had a big head."
The All Blacks of his era were a reflection of New Zealand's own culture at the time Sir John said.
"When I went to the side there were four or five Aucklanders, fifteen farmers, right? We were 'rugby, racing and beer."
The All Black archetype has changed but he said high performance sport is still as much a reflection of New Zealand's wider culture as it was in his sporting heyday.
"It cracks me up when we give an athlete s*** because he got pissed. Like, that's our culture. Let's talk about our culture, right? Let's not talk about our elite that live our culture."
* 30 with Guyon Espiner comes out every week on RNZ, Youtube, TVNZ+ and wherever you get your podcasts.
Since his playing days, Sir John - or JK as he prefers to be called - has become an outspoken mental health advocate.
In the full, uncut interview, he challenged Espiner to open up about his own mental and physical health.
"Have you had the cold steel up you and the cold steel down you? I do it every five years. But some of my mates haven't, and I turn 60 this year."
Sir John said men are better at talking about their wellbeing now than in the past, but that talking only goes so far.
"Men are s***. We are still struggling now. This is my major issue, right? The awareness is there, and we can talk about it, but what do we do about it? So the prevention space is really, really important to me."
He joked that life in the 80s was "s*** hot, because you used to smoke and drink piss, and no one gave a s***".
"You could eat four pies and no one gave a s***. Because we just didn't know, ignorance was bliss."
Education around destructive behaviours has been a good thing, but people still need the social interaction that used to go along with it, he said.
"This is going to sound really weird, but the pub got taken away from us. If you're a farmer, you used to go to the pub and talk about the tractor being broken down, all that sort of stuff.
"So a lot of these social things that have died with social media ... have made it a lot harder for us to connect.."
For Sir John, who was knighted in 2012 for his contribution to rugby and mental health, maintaining a daily routine is key to maintaining his own personal wellbeing.
"I read, I cook. I play the guitar badly," he joked.
But he said one of the most important things in his day is connection, and living half the year in Italy means he can see the the positive side of media technology when it comes to staying in touch.
"I love technology, right? I connect with my phone because I've got kids overseas, my wife's overseas. So I connect through technology. But I also need to connect with people."
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