Helen Clark Interviews From New York

Monday 27th July, 2009

TVNZ’s Paul Henry has travelled to New York to interview former Prime Minister, Helen Clark about her new job at the UN. The interviews with her have been transcribed below and the full length video interviews can be seen on tvnz.co.nz by clicking on the link, http://tvnz.co.nz/breakfast-news/breakfast-in-new-york-2857702

PAUL HENRY interviews HELEN CLARK
First interview at 7.10am
Paul This is New York, Helen good morning again.

Helen Good morning again.

Paul As the Administrator of the United Nations Development Programme, you are charged with improving the lot of the world's poorest and most vulnerable people. Is it a job that’s actually doable?

Helen Well we have to say it is because if you look at say China and India, huge countries with a lot of economic growth in recent years, they have lifted hundreds and hundreds of millions of people from poverty, so I think we know what the recipe is, it's growth and it's trade and it's investment, it's employment, a chance for people to do all those things, and also on the other side investing in good education so people have got the skills, healthcare. It can be done.

Paul Although you have only been in the job what just a little over 100 days you’ve already been to see some of the world's most vulnerable people. Have you got a better picture do you think now of just how big the task is?

Helen Well it is huge in the countries which have been really mired in conflict for a long time. I went to Liberia as my very first call out of New York and they had a civil war that raged there for close to 20 years, the place was reduced to rubble, it's a very sad thing. Now they’ve got a good leader, well intentioned people, good strategies and programmes, but building the capacity to actually make it happen on the ground is the big issue.

Paul And of course you went through Congo as well. Are you greeted – you're used to travelling internationally and being greeted as a Prime Minister, what is the difference between that and being greeted as what No.3 at the UN?

Helen The Administrator of UNDP is a very senior position and in addition UNDP is the face of the UN around the developing world, many people, many ambassadors here say to me – in my country the UN is UNDP, that’s what we know.

Paul We're going to have a look through your office a little bit later on, we went up to the building just over here, an amazing building. Tell me about the first few days in the office, meeting a brand new bureaucracy.

Helen Well you meet many people and for a while you just can't retain all the names, you’ve got to try and link names to faces, and I went through the complex because we've got you know many many hundreds of employees here, let alone thousands and thousands out in the field, so I held what amounted to town hall meetings on every floor with every unit, and I remember going into one unit and someone said look this is absolutely incredible I've been here 18 years the Administrator's never been on this floor, and that was the general reaction. So I think the willingness to engage and get out and meet people probably some of the skills you pick up as a Kiwi politician, they serve you pretty well settling into a new position here.

Paul Well I was going to ask you about that because I've been to many UN missions around the world and often have had other peacekeepers, often had members of the United Nations say it is the Kiwi peacekeepers, the Kiwi attitude that really gets in with the locals and you know they are the ones that become loved and become the face of the UN. Do you think from a bureaucratic point of view that is true of you?

Helen I think it's pretty much the same and the other thing which was incredibly well received here was the party led by King Tuheitea coming up from New Zealand for the powhiri reception, people were blown away by that, people said it was the most wonderful thing they'd ever seen happen at the UN.

Paul I've had UN people say that to me already here, it's the best function they’ve ever had.

Helen That’s right.

Paul You have always been a pragmatic leader, you’ve been criticised for that in the past but that is your way, you know we've heard you say things and whether we liked them or now we knew that’s what you meant. Is it as possible to be pragmatic at the United Nations in your position?

Helen I think it's absolutely critical, because in the end what matters is what results you get on the ground, so it doesn’t matter like in Kiwi politics how much high flown rhetoric there is, unless you can show a change for the better then you will be judged with pretty negative results.

Paul That is though one of the biggest criticisms of the United Nations isn't it, that it is basically an enormous committee that don’t come to conclusions easily.

Helen You know I've come to appreciate that what happens in this building across the road from mine, the General Assembly and the Security Council, it's a democracy of 192 countries, so we're sometimes frustrated that the UN can take its time reaching a decision. It's very difficult to corral 192 countries or the 15 on the Security Council from a wide range of countries for that matter, so what I like about my position in this whole scheme of things is that it plays probably to my pragmatic can do skills, because I'm administering a programme which is present in more than 135 countries around the world, 166 developing countries actually, and we can get on and do things.

Paul The General Assembly was sitting when I went in on Friday and had a look around, and I saw the Sudanese delegation there, and I thought is it possible, and I'm sure you have to be careful answering questions like this, but is it possible to work with people who operate a country such as Sudan?

Helen Well since I've been here I've engaged very widely with the Diplomatic Corp and you get to know people as people, so obviously met the Ambassador from Sudan, a more courteous person you couldn't meet, he presided over two meetings that I was part of, one meeting all the T77 developing countries, plus China Ambassadors, and another one was the Afghan Yutan(?) Ambassador, so what I see here is professional people doing their jobs.

Paul You you're very hopeful for the future?

Helen Look life's too sure to ever be pessimistic, you have to look at the things you can do which will make a difference, and I'm very positive about what I'm doing

Paul It's interesting there are some huge similarities that I see between this and being a Prime Minister, for instance being a Prime Minister is a job you can never finish, I mean you can never stop ruling a country can you, you can stop someone else has to take on. That is very much true, I suppose it would be lovely for you to be able to think you could wind up your mission here but that won't happen will it?

Helen And it won't be in my lifetime, but I think that those of us in the whole area of development, we should have one objective in mind and that is to put ourselves out of a job, we want to see people have the resilience, the independence, to be able to stand on their own feet and get ahead, that’s the purpose.

Paul Alright Helen Clark, thank you very much for that. We'll be back with Helen Clark of course throughout the morning, we'll find out what her office is like and what is in the in tray, and also what is life like for Helen Clark in New York.


HELEN CLARK'S IMPRESSIONS OF NEW YORK

Second interview at 7.45am

Paul It's 12 minutes away from 8.00 Breakfast on a Monday morning, Helen Clark with me of course in Helen Clark's New York. Quite different to Mt Albert?

Helen Couldn’t be more different. Mt Albert doesn’t have high rise really, it's got you know some kind of low rise, but mostly sections.

Paul No matter how far you get form home certain things haunt you, Dennis Walsh's new book of course has come out, an unauthorised book about your life. Have you had a chance to read it, I know you’ve got a copy.

Helen Well they sent me a copy but I didn’t agree to be interviewed for it, I actually think it's much too early to do any sort of proper retrospective view on what I achieved in those nine years and what the government did, so I'll await a serious history.

Paul The comment about you're black – you can't even remember the black book(?) can you?

Helen I certainly can't.

Paul And I know the book says that you hold grudges, but I think evidence that I'm here with you now is that obviously you don’t hold grudges for too long.

Helen It shows I get over it fairly quick.

Paul Has Peter been over yet, he's seen the apartment?

Helen Yes he came up with me when I first came in April and he was actually there the day we chose the apartment, and he's been up once since then.

Paul Talk me through choosing an apartment in New York. It's not just a matter of looking through a section in the Herald and going to see a couple is it?

Helen It's quite a business because you really need a broker who's going to identify apartments for you, that’s the way you get the keys to look at things

Paul Why is that? Why couldn’t you do it yourself?

Helen Well people just don’t advertise an apartment and hang around to see you, the brokers kind of work between each other so the personal owners of the apartment will have a broker, you’ve got a broker and they help you cut the deal.

Paul So everyone gets a cut?

Helen Everyone gets a cut.

Paul Give me an idea, I mean not perhaps specifically how much you pay but an idea of how much it would cost to get into a two bedroom apartment here?

Helen Oh you'd be not looking for a lot of change out of 20-25 thousand dollars plus

Paul` US?

Helen Correct.

Paul Twenty to twenty five thousand plus to get into an apartment?

Helen Yeah, now that of course includes a month's rent in advance, but you’ve got to put your month's deposit down and then you’ve got the brokers' fees which can be about 90% of the month's rent, that’s for each of the brokers, and then you’ve got to get the agreement from the condominium corporation though, on it goes, it's quite expensive.

Paul And then presumably you're talking an unfurnished apartment, so you're then spending out 10-20 thousand to finish.

Helen That’s right, if you're gonna put new furniture in a two bedroom place you're probably looking at $20,000 plus for the furniture.

Paul I mean how do you do that, are there furniture shops in the middle of New York?

Helen Well there's if you like showrooms for places which are kind of designing for the New York apartment market, so you can do it fairly simply with one stop shopping.

Paul Are you enjoying it, living here?

Helen Oh loving it. It's different and if I hadn’t done it I'd always have thought well what else, what if I hadn’t and really you run your course doing certain things and sitting on the back benches in Kiwi parliament wasn’t where I wanted to be.

Paul It was never going to work for you going to the back bench was it?

Helen Never, no. You’ve got to move on from that, I've had the privilege of holding the top job and holding it for a long time, so that was the peak for me.

Paul And you knew, I mean people will remember that speech on election night, you knew going into that election that you were not going to be a back bencher again

Helen I had no intention of being Leader of the Opposition again, so that meant that if things went the way they eventually did that I'd be looking for something else.

Paul Alright, food here in New York. Do you eat in very much?

Helen Well I've got the freezer stocked with Indian frozen food like I used to have at home.

Paul But there's something else stocked in the freezer now isn't there over here?

Helen The Vogel's bread.

Paul Vogel's bread, I've been told you’ve got piles of Vogel's bread.

Helen I've got loads of Vogel's bread, but no look you can eat out, the most beautiful food here, anything you like any time, you can pay any price, I mean you can go to a fantastic sushi bare and eat good sushi and probably come out with plenty of change from 20 bucks or you can go and pay $125 for a 20 course meal somewhere, anything you like.

Paul And it's interesting isn't it, because people live in the centre of New York, so right next to a very expensive top line restaurant you can have a little very cheap corner deli.

Helen Absolutely and these places are open very very late at night, they’ve got really most things you want, it's relatively easy to work out where your services are round here.

Paul I'm going to test the city that doesn’t sleep tonight, have you tested it?

Helen I can't say I have actually, I tend to be likely tucked up in my own bed, but I hear Times Square at midnight's pretty good.

Paul How about New Yorkers, how do you get on with New Yorkers?

Helen Well I thought people would be a lot ruder and more pressured. Actually I've found New Yorkers pretty friendly by and large, you don’t get quite the brush off you do in some big bustling cities.

Paul Is there the obsession with security here, I mean when we went into the UN earlier, when I went in I was surprised actually there are the detectors and that but I was surprised that security wasn’t slightly higher. Have you been surprised that security is a little less obvious?

Helen Well there is a lot of security, your apartment buildings have always got security, your own office block, no one's gonna get far through the turnpike there, people can be stopped going into the UN – one of my staff is here on a short term contract, she can't come in the same entrance I can even if she's with me, so there's all those little blockages.

Paul You haven't had many weekends in New York really have you, you’ve been frantic you’ve travelled a lot around the world. We've just spent a weekend in New York together, was that almost the first one that you’ve...

Helen Well I've probably spent maybe four or five weekends here but at an early stage when I was sort of camping in temporary accommodation I'd tend to come down to the office at the weekend and maybe use the gym there, so I haven't had a lot of time just to wander round and see places, thus you know being able to get out and about in the weekend like this has been great.

Paul We've got people riding past on bikes now, there are people walking dogs and everything, you get up in the morning, go to the gym in your apartment building, and then you go for your normal stroll?

Helen Well you go out and get stuff, pick up the paper, make sure the fridge is stocked because the work's pretty busy, and people you know – friend here she's got a car she'll ring up and say do you want to go for a drive, you know there's always something to do.

Paul You told me though that that friend only knew three locations.

Helen She did, she said I only know three places and we went to one of them and it was a winner.

Paul That’s lucky when you only know three. Can I just say very quickly a couple of the asides that you make here, it's obvious that you're actually enjoying the freedom that not being the Prime Minister gives you.

Helen Well as New Zealand Prime Minister you're in a little bubble and really it's 24 hours a day, if you fall over on the footpath outside your home it's going to end up on the papers somewhere, so yeah it is actually freedom from that kind of scrutiny.

Paul Alright coming up on Breakfast we have the News of course and then we will give away the Breakfast Buzzy Bee.


TOUR OF HELEN CLARK'S OFFICE

Third interview at 8.20am

Paul We're going to check out Helen Clark's office in just a moment but first of all I've got a present for you. You probably don’t have one of these, this is for you flat, to remind you of home.

Helen Oh, well this is the iconic tomato sauce bottle from the factory of my old friend Maurice Watson who had Premier Plastics in Ethel Street, Morningside, Sandringham for so many years.

Paul How good is that? You haven't got one already have you?

Helen No I haven't.

Paul Brilliant, and I happen to know that you don’t like tomato sauce really, but I know you'll have people staying that do like tomato sauce.

Helen I'll put chilli sauce in it.

Paul Oh perfect, the right colour as well. Let's take a look at Helen Clark's office.

Paul Helen Clark, Administrator, nice plaque and I'm suspecting quite a nice office, and of course the giving away of the Breakfast Buzzy Bee.

Helen Is that you again?

Paul I continue to hound you. Look at that view.

Helen Absolutely spectacular. It's an incredible view and the light effects are just fantastic.

Paul When you're having your important meetings do you worry that people's eyes might be ..?

Helen A little bit.

Paul Now you're gonna give me a tiki tour of your office but first of all talking tiki tours, in Breakfast we had three thousand people who chose this over a tiki which we selected to go on your desk or a paua shell ashtray, did they choose wisely?

Helen They did because what child didn’t have a Buzzy Bee in New Zealand, it will go on my desk.

Paul It would be quite nice on the desk, well let's have a wee look at the desk. What have we got – ohh quite a lot of work.

Helen Quite a lot of work, quite a lot of reading, but you know all my good messages like UNDP goes green and my smoke free mug from New Zealand.

Paul Is this an appropriate cup for someone of your stature to be drinking out of?

Helen Well it's what there is.

Paul Have you properly moved in yet?

Helen Well I haven't populated the walls with anything.

Paul No, because that’s what I think is you’ve got a lifetime of knickknacks haven't you?

Helen I have, I've got a lot in storage and I've been thinking of bringing up some of my favourite photographs from New Zealand, but just got to get time to get home and choose them.

Paul Well anyone that knows you well will know that you're never far away from cartoons, you quite like your cartoons don’t you?

Helen I do, this was just such an amazing privilege to be part of it because when the Rugby Union approached me somewhere around mid 2005 would I go to Dublin I said well you know if you think it would help I'll go, and I actually think it was critical, because we were punching so far above our weight as a country of four million and we had to really convey the meaning that this was a stadium of four million people that were going to get in behind the cup, so the message had to come from the top, but to be there with Pine Tree Meads and Tana Umaga that was so special.

Paul You’ve replaced the New Zealand flat of course with the flag of all nations?

Helen I have indeed yes.

Paul There's some empty shelves here Helen.

Helen Well I've got to fill them up. Actually cards continue to flow in from New Zealand, people who say look I've only just got around to writing but I want to say fantastic and good on you, and thanks for everything you did, I mean they're really really lovely cards, so they're all from New Zealand, they all deserve a reply.

Paul But you’ve got people to do that for Africa haven't you?

Helen Well I have.

Paul Should I say that to someone in your position that you’ve got people to do that for Africa?

Helen The personal ones I must do myself. Plants are a bit iffy, I don’t think anyone waters them.

Paul One think I wanted to know was what was in your in tray, which is the in tray?

Helen That pile there.

Paul This here?

Helen Yes.

Paul Now I won't open them because I'm sure they're all strategic documents?

Helen We sign letters, we read reports, we go to meetings with policy decisions, it's actually quite similar to being Prime Minister.

Paul Are you still an obsessive reader, because I know you would never say anything if you hadn’t thoroughly read, so when it says for signing, sign here, I would hope it and sign it?

Helen Yes, and just like at home I rewrite the letters.

Paul I suppose already you’ve had some quite big names sitting around here.

Helen I've had wonderful people through, heads of government, many ministers, heads of other big UN agencies, every day I get the Financial Times.

Paul So they're all down here.

Helen I get the Guardian, I get the New York Times.

Paul Do you have time to ...?

Helen Have to scan them, I love newspapers. I get the Economist, I get the New Statesman, I get the Guardian Weekly, that keeps me kind of busy.

Paul Now this is disturbing for me, is this the postponed indefinitely file?

Helen No no, these are the daily folders, now I get of course many mementoes like this, here's a photo album of my trip to the Democratic Republic of the Congo, and this is the welcome banner.

Paul Kia ora. Gosh there's a lot of work there that'll keep you busy for a while the Democratic Republic of Congo. Now this here, I know this is very touching because a couple of people at the UN have already told me that the function when you arrived the one for all the staff was probably the best function they’ve ever had here.

Helen Yeah people loved it, you know the impact of that very senior Maori delegation coming with King Tuheitea, with Sir Paul Reeves, with Timu Te Heu Heu, Parekura came, it was fantastic.

Paul Closed doors, there could be anything in here, I'm gonna guess clothing.

Helen Well actually it's the teabags and the creamer and there you go one umbrella.

Paul Could be clothing couldn’t it. A Jeeves coat hanger.

Helen There you go, but without the butler.

Paul And through that door I'm thinking personal bathroom.

Helen Little kitchenette and bathroom.

Paul Right, oh look at the Buzzy Bee it's already landed.

Helen The Buzzy Bee, it's already there.

Paul That’s fantastic Helen, thank you very much for showing us you're office.

HELEN CLARK INTERVIEW 4

Third interview at 8.37am

Paul On the Telecom XT phone I've been getting some of the texts in here to our feedback today Helen, and a lot of people are saying how proud they are that you’ve got the job and you're representing New Zealand on the world stage, has that been made obvious to you from New Zealanders?

Helen Yes, just so many messages going back to when the announcement was first made, and people are still sending cards and messages on up here.

Paul There's a text in as well here on the old phone, can you ask Helen Clark how much of New York she's seen, and what is here favourite part of the city.

Helen Well I get to drive around it quite a lot, there's a lot of things I'd like to do yet. In terms of favourite parts the part I like most is the older part down around Soho, it reminds me a bit of the London terraced housing and it's not the big skyscrapers you see around here, it seems more human scale.

Paul It's funny you say it reminds you of London, because even driving here from the centre of New York, from the hotel I'm staying in, at ground level it actually looks like W1 doesn’t it?

Helen Exactly, exactly, and the older parts you really could be you know stepping out into some of those little suburbs of London where you’ve got the houses sort of three four storeys up.

Paul You’ve known me for a long time Helen, are you surprised that I haven't asked you any embarrassing questions yet?

Helen Not at all.

Paul I so want to know how much you earn, but it would be so tacky for me to ask you that wouldn’t it?

Helen I think you can go into the website.

Paul In terms of perks I've been surprised that there weren’t a huge number of perks, you do get a driver though don’t you?

Helen Yes you get a driver who doubles as looking after your security, and that’s appropriate, they don’t provide housing, you’ve got to get out and look for your own.

Paul Isn't that a shame with the sort of price you have to pay for an apartment?

Helen It would be wonderful but it doesn’t happen.

Paul Well you know you're No.3 if you got to No.1 you could rework the ...

Helen No.1 is something.

Paul There's a little bit more coin in the kitty there. We'll be back with a little bit about missing New Zealand for Helen Clark as Breakfast comes to a close.

HELEN CLARK INTERVIEW 5

Interview 5 - at 8.54am

Paul Welcome back to New York, outside the United Nations headquarters here in New York with Helen Clark for the last time this morning. Thank you for your time this morning. You’ve been amused by this Labour Party caterpillar which – it's just been climbing around my glasses and it just did a poo on me.

Helen It's shown great resilience actually.

Paul Talking resilience what's your impression of the economy, I mean it does appear to be bouncing back, you're here in New York what's your feeling on the ground?

Helen You go up New York at night, there seem to be a lot of people around the tourist spots, the crowds are coming through. I think the stimulus package here obviously is pretty large so something would be expected to come of it, but employment's always the last indicator to move so I guess a worrying time for Americans for a wee while ahead yet.

Paul So unemployment you're expecting could still get worse here?

Helen That seems to be the way with recessions in western countries that even when the indicators start to pick up with growth the job numbers can still be pretty poor.

Paul And some of the personal stories here are still horrifying, people literally just walking away from their homes and their debt with all they can carry and nothing more.

Helen Sad sad stories, I saw a programme months ago, BBC World I think people camped outside Reno in their tents with just what their belongings were, they drove out of the house with.

Paul In your office the other day I bumped into Heather Simpson and I have to say that is the most relaxed I've ever seen her. Well it was the first time in my life she's ever been prepared to speak to me, and she was very relaxed as well.

Helen Well Heather never did interviews as you know but no I think she's been a huge asset up here and she's enjoying it too.

Paul She's got another bureaucracy to terrorise now.

Helen More or less.

Paul Incidentally I'm gonna have to get you to get rid of the caterpillar I can't continue to conduct this conversation with this caterpillar, it's your turn Helen.

Helen Thank you well I've got him on my finger now. Look at that.

Paul Fantastic. The only poisonous caterpillar in New York. We were talking about you're security man, a driver, his name?

Helen Bryan Edwards.

Paul What are the odds? Bryan Edwards the driver. Are you missing New Zealand?

Helen Well there's not a day you don’t think about New Zealand, on the phone to Peter, on the phone with parents, everyone's emailing and texting, so you don’t actually miss it cos it's never away from you, it's always there.

Paul Yeah yeah, and you'd love your parents to come over?

Helen Oh absolutely.

Paul Do you think you're gonna be able to manage that?

Helen Well just depends on health, they're both in their mid late 80s now, so that’s a huge trip to come across here, but we'll see.

Paul I was going to ask you at the end of the programme if now after this much time away from the top job in New Zealand you were missing that, but it almost seems redundant, I don’t think you are you?

Helen I don’t think so no.

Paul Not even remotely?

Helen Not even remotely.

Paul You’ve moved on, that’s fantastic. We found out earlier that in your fridge you have umpteen loaves of Vogel's how much of your very favourite liquorice do you have?

Helen Oh my goodness, and this would be RJs which I visited with Darren Hughes in Levin, absolutely fantastic liquorice.

Paul And that’s the favourite. Now this you won't have to keep in the freezer of course, you can keep it in the apartment, but I'm suggesting you keep it in a slightly cold room because it is nightmarishly hot here, I'm afraid to say. I went up the Empire State building the other day and they said that sometimes it snows on the top when it's not snowing on the ground.

Helen And you wouldn’t think it in this sort of weather would you?

Paul No, right at the moment you'd be looking forward to a bit of snow.

Helen Well I'll be getting the winter clothing in because the winter goes quite a long while here and you do have to trudge through the snow to work.

Paul You'll be looking forward to all the many seasons here in New York, have you spent much time in Times Square?

Helen No, I haven't actually been to Times Square, I've got to muster the energy to get there after midnight.

Paul Well I will be getting up at two o'clock in the morning do you want me to give you a ring. Ohh!

Helen I think it bit.

Paul Oh really. Well we only have a few more moments with Helen Clark before the venom sets in. Do you want me to give you a ring at two o'clock in the morning?

Helen Yes certainly.

Paul See if you're still alive. Because I'm getting out to Times Square, I'll give you a call anyway. Alright Helen Clark thank you very much, and all the very best for what is an enormously challenging job.

Helen Thanks a lot.

ENDS

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