Q+A’s Panel Discussions With Paul Holmes, Dr Therese Arseneau, Sir Douglas Graham And Matt Mccarten.

The full length video interviews and panel discussions from the first episode for Q+A 2010 can be seen on tvnz.co.nz at, http://tvnz.co.nz/q-and-a-news

Q+A is repeated on TVNZ 7 at 9.10pm on Sunday nights and 10.10am and 2.10pm on Mondays.

PANEL DISCUSSIONS led by PAUL HOLMES

Response to SHANE JONES interview

PAUL Secrecy to do with this foreshore and seabed business, is he right?

SIR DOUGLAS GRAHAM – Former Treaty Negotiations Minister
No I don’t think so. I think there's a lot of talk going on between Iwi, and Iwi and the Crown, and that’s fair enough. Until they know what they're going to say it's a bit hard to come out with anything. At the end of the day if they do come up with something then obviously everybody's going to be debating it. I rather suspect that they're finding it very difficult to do better than they’ve got at the moment, and it could be that, although I don’t know, they end up just going back to the court and saying for goodness sake tell us what the rights are, and if they do that they may find that the rights aren't as great as Maori thought they were and they would have better off to stick with the Cullen act.

PAUL Is it possible that Iwi really are divided you know themselves on what it is they actually want. Matt what do you think?

MATT McCARTEN – National Secretary
Well once it opens up to negotiations with the Crown, I mean in the end it's a political game and if you are the leadership of an Iwi, that you're gonna want to maximise whatever advantages there are, that’s business, but I mean Sir Douglas is right in the sense of there's negotiations going on, and that’s just normal. I mean until it comes out well then we'll know what we're dealing with. So I think that Shane in some sense is putting up a straw man to knock over, you know say oh it's outrageous these elites, without sort of saying exactly what it is, these Iwis are set up as corporations because Labour set it up that way, and so they’ve got a job to do.

PAUL Isn't there something though Therese simple about the Foreshore and Seabed Act, as I said to Hone last week you do own the foreshore and seabed already because you're a New Zealander?

THERESE ARSENEAU – Political Analyst
Well I think it's interesting that we tend to get back to your question to Matt that you know we assume that all Maori want the same thing. Well why would we assume that, and why would we think for example – you know I'm insulted when people say things like all women think the same way or want the same thing in politics. I think it's interesting at the moment that so many of the battles seem to be within Maori themselves, and that’s what we saw at Waitangi Day, that race relations at the moment the differences seem to be within Maori.

MATT Which is healthy.

THERESE Which is the way it should be and it's the way it's always been and it's wrong to simplify things and make it sound as if all Maori want the same thing, but in terms of the simplicity of the foreshore and seabed I mean what I read is what it comes back to is was it fair in the first place to take away the right to test the claims in court. I mean it took away a basic fundamental right that we expect in a liberal democracy.

MATT Which every other New Zealander gets.

THERESE I don’t know you can heal, I don’t know that any of the wounds can really heal until that is addressed.

PAUL What do you think Sir Douglas?

DOUG I agree with that and I think that whilst Canada and Australia have developed their jurisprudence quite dramatically we're behind, so we're proceeding on a practical resolution of claims process which is fine, but when it comes court defined rights, there's hardly any. So the sooner we get to that stage it seems to me the better it would be for everyone.

PAUL What about the business Doug of Maori elites, do you think that Maori elites are benefitting from the settlement and expense of the rank and file?

DOUG Well they may but to the extent that they are that’s a matter for Maori themselves, I mean we don’t tell them how to run their own affairs. Some of them I have to say have been working for 30 years with their own money trying to pursue the claim and if they extract a fee after 30 years just before they die, well I don’t know that anybody should get too upset about it, and I doubt very much if their Iwi get upset about it. So I don’t know, but I think it's for them to sort that out themselves.

PAUL All in all a very very good Waitangi Day then?

MATT It was great, and as an example about the maturing, and talk about the transition, it's already here, and I think the flag you know, the tinorangatiratanga flag has now been recognised, and Key sort of having the emblem of both flags on his lapel, you know that’s huge, and the thing is that started the debate about our own flag, and if it wasn’t for the tinorangatiratanga flag we wouldn’t now be having this huge debate about our own identity.

PAUL All in all a very good place to be, New Zealand.

*********

Response to DR ALAN BOLLARD interview

PAUL Well what did the panel make of Dr Bollard's comments, and interesting that he said Australia's been so lucky that God has sprinkled minerals around so many wild brilliant places where nobody's there and nobody minds you mining, but when it comes to monetary policy, when it comes to interest rates here's what Dr Bollard was saying.

Dr Bollard: 'Ultimately we'll have to increase interest rates, but we think that we won't have to increase them as far if you’ve got a flatter playing field.'

Tax wise is what he means I guess, flatter playing field, but when you look at the unemployment numbers no sign that interest rates can go up at the moment because he wasn’t suggesting that at all.

MATT Well what's the interesting thing listening to him, there is no plan, just hope for the best, and you know there's almost like this thing, oh we're surprised by unemployment as if it's kind of like well there's a surprise, now moving on, and what I think if the key we've got nothing in our Reserve Bank Act or in our government to say is we have responsibility for employment, so we get these numbers out now, one in four young people are unemployed now, one in seven of Maori and Pacific Islanders and it's all going up and it's all going oh we don’t know how it works. We had a job summit, we don’t hear anything about that any more because it hasn’t created one job.

THERESE I would interpret that differently what he said, and including what he said in his speech last week. What he says is the Reserve Bank is doing what it needs to do and what it's supposed to do which is to control inflation, but what he's saying is and he's giving a real prod I think to the government, and he's saying you know they need to do their part, if they really want the long term goal of sustainable economic growth, then he's pointed very clearly to the government what they need to do, they need to have fiscal discipline, and what he's talked about extensively today is that we need a more neutral tax system when it comes to where people invest money.

PAUL That’s right he says New Zealanders have been encouraged to invest in houses not in businesses. Is the Reserve Bank due for a change Doug?

DOUG No. No I think we got to the right spot some years ago in the 80s and I think it's worked very well, and I think criticism of the Reserve Bank is misplaced, it can only do certain things and it does it very well, we should be very thankful we've got a person of the calibre of Alan Bollard quite frankly running it, but the government has to support it, and if the policies done produce what Matt would like to see then it is the government's fault not the Governor of the Reserve Bank.

PAUL The government's got to look at itself that’s right. Then regarding whether we can catch up with Australia, Dr Bollard said he doubts didn’t he frankly, that we can catch up with Australia. Basically what he's saying is Australia might be the lucky country, we can be the lucky neighbour with the crumbs.

THERESE Well we also have things that will make us lucky going forward, I mean we also have water in abundance, fresh water, which is liquid gold I think, and we have the ability I think to produce food in a world where these resources are becoming far more rare, so I think we're more than just a lucky neighbour, no doubt that being close to Australia has helped us, we also have certain features that make us lucky as well.

PAUL And who knows what minerals we have underneath the conservation estate Matthew.

MATT Don’t start that. The thing is the Australians have always had an interventionist approach, we have a hands off, and that’s why we're behind. The best thing I got from Bollard however, there's always ideologues you see, you see they have to see that the economy .... don’t work in terms of employment and other issues, just inflation, it's the only thing, but you know we're starting to see the chickens come home, but let me just note this, this is the first time we've had someone of some stature saying we're not gonna catch up with Australia.

DOUG Well I was saddened to hear what he said but I think he's dead right. I just don’t think we can, it's a goal to say we will try and do it, but they're two totally different economies, Australia does things differently than we do, sometimes better, sometimes worse. So I wouldn’t worry too much about looking overseas all the time.

PAUL You go to Sydney and straight away you know that a giant has grown up next to us. What are the politics of this, this is unusual for Dr Bollard to cast doubt on a government aim like this of catching up with Australia by 2025, it's going to attract some attention.

THERESE I've read it as a real poke at Phil Goff for his criticism and a real prod for the government in terms of what they need to do. You know I also think though that New Zealand is considered per capita one of the most richest countries in the world in terms of resources, so you know I'm not sure we are gonna catch up with Australia, you know the horse I think has bolted, but I think looking forward what Alan Bollard is saying is this is a complex jigsaw puzzle and the government would be wrong to focus on any just one thing, for example tax reform, you’ve gotta look at the complete package.

PAUL So what do you think's gonna happen with the interest rates Sir Doug?

DOUG I think they’ll go up later in the year, when the inflationary pressures start to build up, but not before, but I mean the minerals are a classic example. We haven't even got the courage apparently to look to see whether we've got any minerals. No wonder we're dragging a little bit behind.

*********

Response to ANNE TOLLEY & ERNIE BUUTVELD interview

PAUL So was the panel convinced by what the Minister had to say? So where are we people on National Standards, you are critical of them or are you worried about the funding Matt, whether the current funding announced can achieve anything?

MATT Well there's a suspicion it's just gonna tell us what we already know, that 20% it's not working, everyone knows that each school knows which ones they are. What they argue, their problem is they don’t get the funding to do anything about it, the rapid reading programme costs 2000 bucks, you're quite right the budget they’ve put it, it gives 138 bucks per student so the teacher's saying well that’s all fine but actually the implementation of it what's going to happen. See I think it's an ideological position which has been taken by this government that you don’t have a league, they want the league, this is nonsense, well we don’t want it yet. The league is actually set up there to bring in school vouchers eventually, mark my words, I bet you this is where this is going.

PAUL Well there's also the possibility that parents do want to know what schools are best, what schools are poorest, in Australia when they put league tables in a website they got they got nine million hits and the system crashed, that’s how much parents want to know.

THERESE The differences are within schools, you know in terms of achievement often you see the biggest difference is within school, but look I agree with Matt, I mean this has been an extremely muddled debate so far, because I think everybody agrees on the two main things which is that parents should have clear cut reports, and also that we want to lift achievement in numeracy and literacy, the fundamental question is though, are National Standards the most effective and most cost efficient way to achieve either of those things, and that’s where I don’t think the government has been very clear on making the connection, and it's because National Standards well it's not an end in itself, it's a means towards an end, and the way we are going to – they don’t actually lift numeracy and literacy, that you lift numeracy and literacy as part of a broader programme. So National Standards will tell us when we've been successful, to be successful it's all about putting money into schools and into teachers and to actually lift the teaching.

DOUG Well I've waited for some months now to get the argument against clear in my mind. The argument against seems to be that the parents and the public can't be trusted to read tables, league tables or whatever it is properly, and they might get the wrong idea and therefore some teachers are going to be said to be useless. Quite frankly, I don’t find that at all compelling, I think the public are entitled to know, I have every faith they’ll be able to work it out themselves quite adequately, and I think if they find that one school's much worse than the other they’ll be able to say well that’s because of so and so and so and so, they're not going to leap to the wrong conclusion, it's really a protection thing for the teachers.

MATT That’s how they want to frame it, the teachers and their union have never said that, what they’ve said is it's simplistic, it needs to be trialled, because the measures they’ve got they think are wrong and also overseas when it's been simplistic it's been disastrous and they're backing off it, and that’s what they say it should be trialled. The argument is, is what are the measures and how it will be trialled, they don’t want a trial, and NZCCA will look at that.

PAUL Well we had the poll yesterday New Zealand Herald poll yesterday, 73% of parents are in favour of National Standards but of course there was 13% they don’t understand it.

DOUG Give them the information and let them work it out.

MATT I agree with that.

THERESE I think what parents are really in favour of is lifting numeracy and literacy

PAUL Which she wants to do.

THERESE They do want information and that’s fair enough.

PAUL The Minister has said we have to raise the bar in reading writing and arithmetic and I don’t think any parent is going to object.

The week ahead what are you anticipating, Matthew?

MATT Well I think it will be a defining week in terms of that John Key the first week back in parliament, he's going to put out his vision, and for the first time John Key's gonna make some hard calls. Phil Goff has said that he's going to sharpen the debate, so we're gonna have the two leaders are gonna come head to head for the first time in my view.

THERESE We're gonna see what sort of leader John Key is, I think his Prime Minister's statement is going to give an indication of the way ahead in terms of that step change that the government has been promising and I think it's really gonna come down to John Key to sell that, because it's a vision for a country, I also think it's a defining week for the Maori Party because the whanauora policy which is fundamental to the party, there's gonna be an announcement made about that as well.

PAUL Which Shane Jones of course reckons is nonsense.

DOUG Well I agree with the comments made already but I also would want to acknowledge the valedictory that’s expected from Jeanette Fitzsimons and I think she's served her country and her party extremely well, and I feel we would all wish her well.

ENDS

© Scoop Media