Q+A’s Paul Holmes Interviews Justice Minister, Simon Power

Points of interest:

- Justice Minister signals overhaul of liquor laws – “there is an expectation that the government will move in this area”
- The proliferation of liquor outlets and the availability of liquor – “that’s likely to be a place where the government will start”
- Government looking to give parents “tools” to be more responsible with underage drinkers – it’s an “anomaly” that adults who aren’t a teen’s parent can supply him or her with alcohol
- Government giving “serious consideration” to changing advertising laws, such as “all you can drink” campaigns and products marketed at under 20 year-olds.
- Limiting opening hours for licensed premises likely to “form a cornerstone of any legislative change”
- Power says he’s seen people queuing to get into bars at 5am – “no good can come of that”
- Liquor licences “need to be harder to get and easier to lose”

The interview has been transcribed below. The full length video interviews and panel discussions from this morning’s Q+A can also be seen on tvnz.co.nz at, http://tvnz.co.nz/q-and-a-news

Q+A is repeated on TVNZ 7 at 9.10pm on Sunday nights and 10.10am and 2.10pm on Mondays.

SIMON POWER interviewed by PAUL HOLMES

PAUL Well when it comes to drinking the stats aren't good in this country. A thousand people die every year from alcohol related problems. About 700,000 New Zealand adults, or 25% of the adult population frequently binge drink, that is six or more standard drinks in a single session, and the Chief Coroner says 12 teenagers, some as young as 13, have died from binge drinking in the past three years.

Now this week a group of prominent New Zealanders, led by Sir Paul Reeves, went to parliament looking for action on what they call our alcohol crisis. They want the government to adopt the recommendations made by the Law Commission back in April, and they propose, rather demand, what they call the Five Plus programme. Now this involves raising the excise tax to increase the price, raising the purchase age, reducing availability of booze in our communities, lowering the blood alcohol limit for drivers. Well earlier I spoke to the Justice Minister Simon Power, who is leading the government's response to the Law Commission's review, and I started by asking if he was surprised by the stand taken by these eminent New Zealanders.

SIMON POWER – Justice Minister
No I wasn’t surprised because New Zealanders have been expressing pretty firm views about the way we drink since the Law Commission Report, and before it Paul. My mail if it's anything to go by is stressing the need for action in this area, and the work that was done by the so-called eminent person's group earlier this week, is a reflection of that growing public concern.

PAUL Do you accept that alcohol and the way we drink is a major issue of our time?

SIMON I actually do believe that the impact that alcohol is having on society presently, on our Health and our Criminal Justice system, as well as various other measures, is a major problem. We said before the election, and indeed since the election that the proliferation of liquor outlets and the availability of liquor in New Zealand is a big problem, and I've signalled for some time that that’s likely to be a place where the government will start in its response to the Law Commission Report.

PAUL Alright, they say that you’ve got a once in a generational opportunity to make a change. That was Geoffrey Palmer of course who said that. Do you agree with that?

SIMON I do think that there has been a watershed in public opinion in recent times, and there is an expectation that the government will move in this area, I accept that. But the key for the government is to get a legislative response together Paul which zeroes in on where the harm is actually occurring, and not to the detriment of those New Zealanders who are drinking in moderation, and reasonably and like a glass of wine with dinner, or a couple of beers while at home watching a Rugby game. So the trick is to have legislation that zeroes in on that harm issue.

PAUL So when you say the harm issue, are you meaning particularly young people? Is that where most of the harm is?

SIMON I am meaning particularly young people, and one of the key areas in dealing with that particular issue is actually the availability of liquor, and since 1990 we've seen a trebling in the number of unlicensed premises to about 14000. The off license premises in that time have doubled to about 4300 off licenses. What that means is that the availability is at quite a different scale to perhaps when I was a student in 1990 in a similar frame of mind.

PAUL Well what could you do about availability, because people have got licenses and paid for them, they’ve qualified for them, they’ve got businesses. People have stores, off license stores, but in New Zealand as you are no doubt suggesting, you can get liquor 24/7. So what can you do?

SIMON What you can do is change the way licensing occurs. My view at this stage, and I need to stress the government hasn’t taken any decisions yet, we're still very much in the process of considering the Law Commission's report. But my view is that licenses need to be harder to get, and easier to lose, and if there is behaviour which is clearly outside of the bounds of what we would regard as being appropriate for access to alcohol for young people. I think that’s a good place for us to start Paul.

PAUL What are you ruling out?

SIMON Well the Prime Minister's ruled out an increase in excise tax, I share that view. What we know is where that decision has been compared say for example to the tobacco decision to raise excise, all smoking causes harm, but not all drinking does. And we have to be very careful as I said before to get that balance right, between not getting too deep into personal lives at homes, whilst at the same time recognising actually that there is considerable harm caused. I might say from my perspective as Minister of Justice, particularly in the Criminal Justice area, particularly in the crime area, particularly in the domestic violence area Paul, there's no doubt that liquor continues to be a major factor in those areas.

PAUL Yes, 30% of crime committed has got alcohol involved, 20% of ACC accident claims has got alcohol, 25% of New Zealanders binge drink. But when you look at figures like that, don’t you think there might be a preparedness on the part of the moderate drinkers of New Zealand to get some real tough measures?

SIMON That’s what we're trying to balance as we speak. That is the process we're going through at the moment.

PAUL But what I'm saying is the balance might not be as delicate as you think it is.

SIMON I still think it's pretty delicate, but I think that where the harm is occurring, that is with young people and availability, there is a good mandate in my view for the government to be moving in that area.

PAUL Right, now the eminent persons this week, they want this Five Plus programme that’s been proposed. Is that a possibility?

SIMON With the exception of the issue around raising alcohol prices by way of excise tax which you’ve dealt with, on the five point plan I've no doubt that the parliament will one way or another consider the purchase age. It's likely for National to be a conscience vote. So the trick for us is when we're designing a regulatory response, to make sure that conscience votes don’t disrupt the integrity of that legislative response and we don’t end up with a mish mash like we've seen with the current law. The other elements of that particular plan relating to accessibility we've dealt with. The marketing issue is a very interesting one, and I'm looking very seriously at the moment at this issue of whether advertising that encourages things like all you can drink, or particular product that is aimed at under 20 year olds. Whether we should be doing something in that space, I'm giving that very serious consideration at the moment Paul.

PAUL How far can you go on banning advertising in marketing, how far can you really as a business-friendly National government go?

SIMON Well that’s right and I mean look I'm not going to get into the business of censorship. But at the same time if advertising is occurring in a way which is deliberately targeting those who are most harmed, and is deliberately using ploys like, you know, all you can drink at a certain bar or the like, for a certain price, I do think I have a responsibility to look hard at whether we can use legislative measure to counteract that.

PAUL What about alcopops, just quickly on alcopops? Would you consider a banning of them? They are after all a pernicious evil.

SIMON Well I've gotta say that from you know 20 years ago when I was a student we certainly didn’t have alcopops in the sphere, but I would be particularly concerned if product was marketed in a way that made it particularly attractive to under 20s in a way where danger was enhanced. So I've gotta say I am looking quite hard at that issue.

PAUL So when you talk about parliament might be, and the party might be, the government might be having a look at the purchase age, when there was last vote you voted for the drinking age or the purchase age to stay at 18. Was that a mistake on your part?

SIMON That’s right. No, no I don’t believe so. I believe that the age is one of the levers that are available on this accessibility issue. If there is a conscience vote with respect to the purchase age, I'll continue to vote for it to be at 18. But I've gotta say that if it's not in the government's response that there's either a split age between on and off licenses or it goes to 20, I'm sure the parliament will discuss that issue as part of this process, and appropriately so Paul.

PAUL So particularly young people is what you're targeting?

SIMON Well one of the things that I'm particularly interested in actually, and there's a lot of work going on at the moment, is this area of parental responsibility. One of the things that’s been highlighted in the last month or two, has been this issue of after-ball parties, and in particular where another adult is providing an underage person with liquor at their home. Presently the law exempts that as being an offence if the minor is attending a private social gathering, whether or not they have their parents' consent to consume liquor. So at the moment I'm having a bit of a hard look at that. It seems to me an anomaly actually that, you know, parents who are throwing a party, who may or may not feel pressured into providing liquor at that party for a whole variety of reasons, when the young person's actual parents or guardians may not be aware of it. Parents that have written to me and have spoken to my colleagues have said that what would be helpful to them is if they had some tools to assist them in their discussions with their teenagers and young sons and daughters about how they should be consuming liquor. So I'm having a pretty close look at that at the moment too.

PAUL Would you consider reducing the hours in which liquor can be sold, either on or off license?

SIMON Yes I would. And I just can't be persuaded Paul that queuing up at 4.30 or 5 o'clock in the morning to go into a bar, or for that matter an off license premises from time to time is an appropriate way for us to be reducing harm. Recently I was in Auckland doing a media round after a speech at 5.30 in the morning going from the radio circuit that will be familiar to you, and I've gotta say that what I saw on the streets of Auckland on corner bars and the like at half past four in the morning, no good can come of that, no good can come of it for those people that are drinking, or frankly to those people they're going home to, or if you want to look at it from an economic perspective, what tourists in our city are seeing if they're coming into Auckland. So there is actually quite a bit of work to be done around the licensing hours issue, which I think realistically is likely to form a cornerstone of any legislative change.

PAUL Well that was Justice Minister Simon Power, quite a lot to discuss there.

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Discussion continued with BRUCE ROBERTSON AND LIANNE DALZIEL

PAUL Let's go further into some of the issues that he raised. With me now the Labour MP Lianne Dalziel. As Associate Justice Minister back in 2008 it was she who initiated the Law Commission's comprehensive liquor review that the government is now deliberating upon. And in our Wellington studio Bruce Robertson from the Hospitality Association. Good morning both of you, thank you for coming on Q+A. Let's start with the overall view of it really. Is this the problem of our times? Has the drinking problem got worse Lianne?

LIANNE DALZIEL – Labour MP
Yes it has, and I think that we have inherited a culture, and I take on board the points people have made about young people. I don’t think this is just about young people, I think it is about more than a generation of heavy drinking in our society and that’s something that we have to face up to.

PAUL Well of course it's not the 18 year olds that come home and bash up the wife and the kids.

LIANNE No that’s right and if we look at the domestic violence statistics, then we do see that there are serious problems with alcohol.

PAUL Bruce Robertson, is something out of control? Do you accept that?

BRUCE ROBERTSON – Hospitality Association
Well I think we've got a real issue with two issues. First is minors, like those under the age of 18 consuming alcohol, and now people drinking to get drunk, and my concern with the sort of recommendations, the Five Plus solutions, they are largely academic and theoretical. We actually need practical issues to deal with those two problems, and we don’t need a 100 odd recommendations, we need two. We need to focus on our young people, we need to create some boundaries for them. They’ve been indulged Paul. We've now got young people who have got cellphones as soon as they're out of nappies. They need some boundaries, and we think actually having a drinking age at 18, saying to our young people you should not drink until you're 18 gives our parents the sort of tools that they're looking for.

PAUL Your comments on that?

LIANNE Well it's not academic actually. The reason that we wanted the Law Commission to do this work was so that we could have a body of evidence against which we could judge what would be an effective way of reducing the enormous harm, and I think it's a bit trite to say that there are only two things that we need to do. There might be five things that we need to do now, but I think that over time we need to do a lot more of the things that are recommended in that report, because it has the evidence behind it. I mean I was at a briefing in Christchurch recently and I thought this was very telling. We had the emergency doctor from the Emergency Department at Christchurch Hospital. She said on Good Friday, Easter Friday, not one alcohol related accident coming into the Emergency Department, not one. The following night, Saturday night, back to normal, five broken jaws. People forget it is something that fuels behaviour.

PAUL Let me come back to one thing you said. It's a bit of a cliché. It's very easy to speak about parental responsibility, kids getting cellphones when they're out of nappies. Have you tried denying a kid a cellphone, because if you deny them one Bruce they’ll get one from somewhere else.

BRUCE But Paul what you're doing is blaming the parents, and we're not putting any responsibility on the young people to make sensible decisions. Now you interviewed I think yesterday Doctor Gluckman and he made it quite clear that young people under the age of 18 should not be drinking, that it affects their cognitive ability. So if we want that to occur then surely we have to send a strong signal to young people that they should not do it.

PAUL Alright, and what Lianne is saying let's do it in a regulatory fashion, she cites the example of Good Friday where all the booze outlets were closed, and they got nobody coming in with alcohol problems. So should we limit availability? That’s one of the five point plan Bruce. What do you say to that? In terms of shutting the problem down now that we've got, and we can perhaps work on other stuff later on.

BRUCE Well we actually need to change – the people that are coming into A&Es are people who have drunk too much, that they have got drunk. Now we actually need to be telling these people...

LIANNE Now hang on, can I interrupt?

BRUCE No let me finish Lianne. What we've gotta do is stop people wanting to become drunk and getting drunk. We need to have them making more sensible decisions in terms of their consumption.

PAUL We understand what you're saying, but what Lianne is saying is having everything open 14,000 booze outlets and God knows what now, sends a signal it's okay to go and get drunk, is that what you're saying?

LIANNE That’s right, the whole culture has changed, and it's the advertising, the marketing, the really pushing people into wanting to think that they have to have a drink to have a good time. I mean we have a fundamental problem with our culture, and sure we can't change the culture with the law, but we can certainly make a big difference to the environment that encourages this level of drinking. And I just want to respond to the Emergency Department suggestion that it is only people who drink too much. What about people who've been run off the road by a drunken driver? That is not the person's fault who ends up in the Emergency Department. Think of the families that have lost family members because of a drunken driver.

PAUL I'm trying to go through the five point plan. So Lianne, limited availability – yes?

LIANNE Okay, limit availability.

PAUL Bruce, limited availability, yes or no?

BRUCE I don’t think it's going to make a significant difference Paul. The only thing we would say is in terms of limiting availability certainly around price, one of the key drivers has been supermarkets cheap alcohol, and what we find in terms of – is young people fuelling up at home, coming to the hospitality precincts drunk already, they can't get into licensed premises, and they cause a problem and hurt themselves, and end up in A&E.

PAUL See that’s one of the cultural changes, getting boozed up before you go out.

LIANNE Absolutely, and the Liquor Licensing Authority calls it preloading, and we are seeing that, that young people look for cheap priced alcohol and they do the maths. They work out how much it costs them to get drunk. They drink to get drunk, and it's not just young people, these are the 20s and 30 year olds that we're talking about as well.

PAUL Does the liquor industry actually accept we've got a problem here Bruce?

BRUCE I'm looking largely from the perspective of on-premise, where you’ve now got less than 30% of alcohol is consumed in bars and restaurants. If we're going to actually address change, we need to address the way that people are drinking in an uncontrolled environment. Now the global stuff, the nice warm fuzzy stuff simply isn't going to cut it. Unless we have tackled drunkenness, and our cultural preparedness to accept it, we're not gonna make a change.

PAUL I think what the Five Plus is about, is fixing some of the problem now and dealing with the cultural stuff later on. What about reducing trading hours. Simon Power says, what good comes of anybody drinking after four o'clock in the morning. Bruce.

BRUCE Well two things, we're not unhappy necessarily about off licenses being closed a little earlier, but if you look at the current environment where New Zealanders are excited about a World Cup event, football's been on everybody's minds, if the sort of hours that the Law Commission were recommending were put in place today, people would not be allowed to go to bars to watch those, and we don’t think that’s acceptable to New Zealand society either.

LIANNE The government can introduce law to actually take care of the Rugby World Cup and there are special licenses available for those kinds of events. So I think that it's really important that we deal with both, it's not just the off licenses it's the on licenses as well. The kids or the younger people, I call them kids now, but the 20, 30 somethings will go in earlier if they haven't got so long to be in the bars

BRUCE No but Lianne under the recommendations of the Law Commission the hours would be cut, and in fact special licenses would not be allowed to extend hours. So under the Law Commission's specific recommendations that the government are currently looking at, bars would no t be able to screen the World Football Cup, yet Rugby World Cup yes they can, because the government's putting in specific legislation to allow that. How hypocritical is that?

PAUL Alright, now can I move on to the business of parental responsibility. Simon Power was talking about this. This difficult little business of your 16 or 17 year old goes round to the mate's place, you know the parents and round there because they're 16 or 17 there might be a Rugby game, big test on, so the dad round at the other house let's all the kids have a beer or wine or whatever. And this is where we can start to get into trouble as we've seen with recent events and deaths, which have been very tragic and unpleasant. There is a New South Wales law isn't there which deals with this, where you may not serve my son drink if he's 17 round at your place. Would you like something like that here?

LIANNE Well I think that parental consent is really important and I do agree with ensuring that it's the parents that take responsibility for that. But I think it would be a bit tough to make it actually consent, and so I think implied consent would be perfectly acceptable.

PAUL What do you think Bruce?

BRUCE Well we think again that our young people need some boundaries, and that a drinking age at 18 would actually start to set the sort of boundaries which would address the problem we've got with our young people who are drinking when they shouldn’t be.

PAUL Purchase age, what would you do?

LIANNE I'd split on license and off license. I think the young people buying this stuff to take away and drinking in unsupervised environments, that is a big part of our problem. And I think that the on license, that’s the supervised environments, I do agree with Bruce on the point that only 30% of alcohol is actually drunk in on license premises now, and that should stay at 18.

PAUL I've gotta leave it there. I thank you very much Bruce Robertson of the hospitality industry, and Lianne Dalziel of Labour.

ENDS

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