'THE NATION'

REUVEN RIVLIN – Knesset Speaker
Interviewed by SEAN PLUNKET

Duncan Well Helen Clark called it a sorry indictment on the Jewish state, it was a time when relations between Israel and New Zealand went sour after Israeli spies stole New Zealand passports back in 2004. Now Israel's just opened up a new embassy in Wellington after eight years of not being represented in New Zealand. The Speaker of the Israeli Knesset Reuven Rivlin was here for the opening and he was keen to talk up the relationship. He talked to Sean Plunket who began by talking about domestic Israeli politics, asking whether Palestinians have legitimate aspirations that cannot be ignored by Israel.

Reuven Well we have conflict and though shortcut of solving the problem. We have a problem and after Israel making a lot of gesture and after Israel have declared openly that they are ready to bring to a solution of two states, the two people, of course when the Palestinians demand the right of return they insist upon Jerusalem as the capital of the Palestinian state and they insist of not defining Israel as a Jewish democratic state, but as a democratic state of all its citizens, it's bringing us to a lot of thought that the compromise that they are seeking for is actually the goal of many many Palestinians….

Sean And that is to populate Jewish Israelis out of their country by democratic means, is that what you fear?

Reuven Well first of all this is the fear of many people in Israel, but you cannot change the demography and you can't change the geography of the land of Israel. We are living together. Israelis and Palestinians. Israelis and Arabs living between the Jordon River and the Mediterranean, all together. We cannot change those facts by splitting the territory. We can bring to a sort of solution but it's not necessary because it has to be with open border, with plus it has to be when both side believe that we are not doomed to live together, but it is our mutual interest to live together, and as long as they are looking for treatment, for peace treaty and they are not looking for real peace there are a lot of hesitations. In Israel we are confirming we are getting resolutions not up to the discretion of one people or government, the parliament is responsible for everything and everyone's going to consider all the possibilities.

Sean Isn't there are very real possibility that come September when the UN General Assembly holds its annual meeting that a Palestinian state is going to be recognised by the UN?

Reuven You cannot oppose agreement of the size they have to get to the understanding that it is ….

Sean So you would ignore a resolution that did recognise the Palestinian state if you were not happy with it?

Reuven If for example the Palestinians would be able after such recognition to invite the Persian the Iranians to get into Palestine and to intimidate Israel we would reject such an idea. Of course when they would say we would like to come to understanding with Israel, everyone in Israel, we are now six million Jews in a state eight million people, six million Jews, four million of them came as refugees to Israel, everyone looking to Israel as a safe haven, everyone would like to seek for peace, to live once and for all in peace. Everyone is ready to peace, but is not ready to give up the really minimal necessities in order to protect …..

Sean Wouldn’t recognition of the Palestinian state, as William Hague would put it, be realisation of legitimate aspirations that do need to be addressed?

Reuven Well every step is a step towards peace, and sometimes we have two steps to go back from this situation, shortcuts cannot bring peace. Resolution of the United Nation was made by all …. at the time and suddenly we found that … said that it was a mistake.

Sean Yes that was a very useful public relations victory for the Israeli government but meantime you still maintain the blockade on Gaza including I understand counting the calories that you think people there should have each day?

Reuven No I don’t think so. I must say that we have open gates for the needs of the Palestinians.

Sean Well the aid organisations trying to send material in say they don’t know what they can send in or not, because you will not publish a clear list of what's allowed and what isn't.

Reuven You have to understand the blockade on Gaza is an outcome of the behaviour of the Hamas people, who are shelling Israel with bombs and sending rockets.

Sean But that doesn’t answer the question. How to aid agencies know what is permitted and what is not if you are not clear about what is permitted and what is not.

Reuven We are very clear what is permitted and that is being certified by the Israeli committees and we know exactly what are their needs and what they are doing in order to gain propaganda I must tell you. No one in the world will accept the idea that one of the soldiers is being kept after being kidnapped from Israel without the opportunity to meet the Red Cross, to meet even the Red Cross, and that is something that shows on the behaviour of the people of the Hamas inside Gaza.

Sean A small group of Hamas and maybe not the general population of Gaza who aren’t in control of what those people do.

Reuven Yes and they have to be responsible they have to kick out all those stowaways.

Sean I want to move quickly to New Zealand. What do you say to New Zealanders who have taken part in efforts led by for example the ex British MP George Galloway to break the blockade on Gaza?

Reuven I beg them to look into the merit of the problem between the Israelis and the Palestinians, to look at the kindergarten in the towns of Israel opposite to and very near to Gaza Strip. They are being bombed. Children cannot go to kindergarten, to schools, they cannot board a bus, they cannot go into a café or to a supermarket and they are all the time under the threat of being bombed, not only with shells, also with rockets. Far away and they have to understand that Israeli is taking steps in order to bring to and end terrorism from Gaza.

Sean Okay do you know how New Zealand might vote on the UN resolution in September if a recognition of statehood resolution is put?

Reuven Between friends sometimes we can agree not to agree. I believe that the New Zealand will think what is good for the whole region, and what is the best way to find ourself, at the end of the conflict which take place …. And by adopting a resolution such a resolution, maybe you adjourn the possibility of living and understanding between Israelis and Palestinians instead of bringing …

Sean Have you advocated during this visit that New Zealand not support any resolution to recognise a Palestinian state?

Reuven We only tried to let the Foreign Affair Minister understand and to let the Members of Parliament understand our position and our concern. It is the right between friends not to agree every time, we want them only to know what is our concern, and that our concern is going to be decided by democratic parliament, and the totally of democracy is very well known is very well known all over the Members of Parliament from Opposition and from Coalition. Some of them believe that we are a super power in the Middle East and we should show good faith in order to bring the Palestinian to understand that they make peace. We are living along with the Palestinians and we know that there are not short cuts, and they have to understand and we have to understand that we have a mutual interest to live together.

Sean Our Prime Minister John Key is a Jew by ethnicity. Do you think he is being more friendly toward Israel than say our previous Prime Minister Helen Clark?

Reuven I believe that both of them was very attached to Israeli, and they had a lot of concern – some of them had more criticism.

Sean I've only named two.

Reuven I'm not ready to – you know I am the Speaker of the Knesset, I have a lot of problems in the Knesset between right and wrong, between left and wrong(?). I have a lot of problems to settle down the ideas between the Palestinians and the Israelis, and the Israelis in Israel, we are 120 members of parliament. Out of them 17 are Palestinians, and all together we have to live along with the Israel democracy and sometimes as Speaker of the Knesset I'm not going to give you know remarks to anyone else. I am sure that both Prime Ministers were very much concerned about Israel. Some of them had criticism, some of them try to understand Israel better.

Sean Thank you very much indeed.

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