'THE NATION'

GERALD HENSLEY & GLYNN HARPER
Interviewed by SEAN PLUNKET

Sean Well ANZAC Day, apart from the fact it's a day off for many, it's the day we remember our war veterans, and those who laid down their lives in defence of the country. When you think about it ANZAC Day has become our defacto national day, a time to reflect on the fact that Maori and Pakeha died for New Zealand, for us. And some say it's much more about racial harmony than Waitangi Day is. Waitangi Day has often been the focus of course for protest. So if war gives us a sense of togetherness, does it also give us a sense of nationhood. Do we think we're a nation that has been moulded or created by war. To look at what war has made us I'm joined here in Auckland by former diplomat, top civil servant and historian, Gerald Hensley, good morning to you, and from Palmerston North is Professor of War Studies at Massey University, Glynn Harper, good morning Glynn to you.

I want to ask you both first, I'll start with you Gerald is ANZAC Day now our national day?

Gerald Hensley – Historian
I think it's working towards that. I think that we have an official national day in Waitangi Day that really isn't working. I think a national day that requires a heavy security presence and which often leads to more division and recrimination isn't working as a national day. A national day should be a day that unites the nation, and curiously that is what ANZAC Day does.

Sean Glynn would you agree that ANZAC Day is now New Zealand's day more than Waitangi Day?

Professor Glynn Harper – Military Historian
Yeah I think I would, but I kinda think that it's regrettable to some degree and it serves almost as a defacto national day. I agree with Gerald that Waitangi Day does seem to divide, and there really seems sometimes to be little to celebrate which is what national days should be about. But ANZAC Day does seem to bring people together, they recognise that this is part of their family heritage. In some ways I think it's almost regrettable because ANZAC Day should be a special day for I think commemoration and remembrance, and in some ways a day that we reflect on the loss and tragedy of war. So in some ways I don’t think it should be a national day, I think it should be that special day for remembrance and commemoration of what we've lost and what we've suffered in the past.

Sean Glynn do you believe that this is a nation that has been shaped by its wartime experiences, given of course we have a very small military and we've been bit players in the large conflicts that we remember on ANZAC Day? We've lost him. We'll put the same question to you Mr Hensley, do you think that we are a nation moulded by war, that it has made New Zealand what it is, that it is the great influence on where we are in our national psyche right now, that ANZAC Day would suggest it is?

Gerald Well I think it is. I think as a nation in our short life we've been very heavily influenced by war. The first half of the 20th century saw us almost continuously at war, and so I think that we have been so heavily influenced that it has given us a sense of nationhood. I think in the disaster at Crete where Howard Kippenberger had put together a makeshift set of troops to try and hold a line, and they started to panic and drift back, and he shouted out – stand – stand for New Zealand. Now that sounds a bit stagy now, but that’s the instinct of a leader, the word New Zealand steadied the line and they held. I think that’s the sense of nationhood that war has given us.

Sean Okay that’s not about Gallipoli though is it, it's about the second world war, which I guess you would argue has had more influence on where we are at today.

Gerald Yes I think I would. Obviously nationhood is a slow growth process and Gallipoli played its part, but I think the confidence that we had in ourselves as a nation came from our performance in the second world war.

Sean Glynn would you agree with that, that perhaps more for Australians it is Gallipoli in the first world war that defines them as a nation. When we look at our military history it is the second world war that was more profound, and was perhaps more a reflection of New Zealand finding its individual place in the world as a nation.

Gerald Certainly I think in terms of nationhood Gallipoli means I think more to Australians than to New Zealanders, although I'm quite conscious having just done a book of Gallipoli letters that there is a developing sense of nationhood that does emerge from Gallipoli. I'm not sure I'd agree 100% with Gerald. I think that also the western front experience of the New Zealanders and also the Mounted Rifle Brigade in Sinai Palestine also adds a lot to our growing sense of nationhood and our confidence. And I don’t think the western front can be ignored, it's there where we made our main effort and actually have some fine performances. It's just that when we come back it's something that’s not talked about or reflected upon as much as happened after the second world war. So I don’t think it's possible to actually leave out the first world war experience entirely.

Sean Alright, Gerald Hensley you would argue that those who came back from World War II, I guess they were the leaders for the next 20, 30, 40 years of this country. Do you think that the war experience made them outward looking and confidence, or perhaps somewhat insular and keen to preserve what they saw as an oasis in a world of conflict.

Gerald Yes I'm not sure how outward looking they were. They were certainly confident. New Zealand did win a place in the war, the division in the Middle East was described by the British Commander in Chief as the best the world had ever seen. Rommel more cautiously said the best in the Eighth Army, but we had the confidence there and with our airmen and our troops in the Pacific of having performed well and been as good as anybody else in the field. I think when we came back, or at least when that generation came back, they came back to what they thought was about as close to a paradise as you can get, that the way New Zealand was organised and run with it's mixed economy, the legacy of the first Labour government, it wasn't any better than that, and they devoted themselves I think really to ensure that it stayed that way. And I think Sir Robert Muldoon was the last of that generation, and he was fighting an ultimately losing battle to keep the country the way it was as he found it when he came back after the war.

Sean And that in many ways cost us a lot as a nation.

Gerald It was a mistake. An understandable one if you think in terms of that generation.

Sean I'm wondering Glynn if also the feeling after World War II that we were as good as anyone on the battle field, if we look at the events of the last 50, 60 years, in many ways the friends I suppose we thought we'd made have not always stood with us have they. We've been increasingly I guess not part of the club.

Glynn Well we took the decision to follow an anti nuclear stance in the mid 80s which was then I don’t think handled terribly well by our friends and allies and by ourselves. So yeah we fell out of that club, but I do agree with Gerald that after the second world war we certainly stood high amongst nations, and getting back to his point about leadership, thinking about the my own experience growing up - I cannot remember having a teacher or certainly a headmaster in a school that was not an ex serviceman, and they were quite proud of that fact. But it did become a little bit stilting and I guess claustrophobic after a while because they had this paternal attitude, and very very strong on the welfare state, and I think Gerald's right that Muldoon was the last of that era, and it took some time to actually recover from that.

Sean You'd agree with that Gerald?

Gerald Yeah I would certainly agree with that, but I think what is interesting about our national history. In the 70s and 80s is that in some mysterious way the confidence that we acquired in the second world war, and the part we played internationally in designing the United Nations and afterwards, ebbed away, and I think the troubles that we had with our anti nuclear policy and our relations with the United States, with Britain and with Australia, marked I think some of that loss of confidence. We pulled into ourselves, people don’t like the term isolationist but we certainly got more interested domestically than we were in the outside world.

Sean Do either of you think that we need another national day or a new national day so ANZAC Day can return to what it was, and I think Glynn you have suggested a more sombre day, a day of remembrance. If Waitangi Day isn't working, if ANZAC Day isn't all that it seems, it's something of a construct – do we need a new day?

Glynn I'm not sure that we need a new day because I would point out too that the way we commemorate and celebrate days can change. I mean ANZAC Day hasn’t always been as popular and as inclusive as it is today. During the 1930s it wasn't very popular and also during the 60s and 70s. I don’t think we need a new day I think and I would hope that Waitangi Day does change over the years and actually becomes more of a day of actually celebrating us as a New Zealand nation rather than dividing and having that sense of guilt along with it. so I'm hoping that that can change. So I'm not certain that we need a new day, I'm just hopeful that those days particularly Waitangi Day will change and that we will grow with it.

Gerald Yes I agree with Glynn, we don’t need a new day, and in any case you can't create a national day by decree or by legislation it's something that people have to feel, and although I also agree with Glynn that it's not appropriate about ANZAC Day, a day of mourning, a day of sacrifice, and a day we share with Australia. I think people are voting with their feet on this one. I think that ANZAC Day belongs to the people in a way that Waitangi Day doesn’t. Every little community in New Zealand up and down the country on ANZAC Day will be running its own little commemoration, and I think that that degree of community participation gets you very close to a national day. At least it's a day in which we can celebrate our unity as a nation and not what divides us.

Sean Gerald thank you very much indeed, and also Glynn Harper from Massey University. Thank you both and of course I hope you have an enjoyable ANZAC Day come Monday.

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