'THE NATION'
DAVID CUNLIFFE AND DAVID SHEARER
Interviewed by SEAN PLUNKET


Sean I've got one question for both of you. You’ve both talked about moving on, changing the Labour Party, changing perceptions of the Labour Party. I want to ask you both, when did you have any personal communication with Helen Clark last. David Cunliffe.

David C Ooh, within the last week.

Sean And what was it about.

David C None of your business.

Sean Was it about this leadership….

David C In the same way that I don’t reveal my personal communications with other caucus …

Sean Was it about politics?

David C It was certainly about politics and that issue did come up.

Sean Okay, so you're talking to Helen, how often do you talk to Helen Clark?

David C Not that often maybe once every few months.

Sean Okay did she proffer any advice to you?

David C I'm not going into the substance of the conversation.

Sean David Shearer, when was the last time you spoke to Helen Clark of had a personal communication?

David S I saw her at her mother's funeral. A group of us went down to pay our respects.

Sean But you haven’t discussed this battle with her at all?

David S No I haven’t had any communication. Well I actually asked to see her when she was back but she texted back saying she had family business, so we didn’t make it, so no other communication.

Sean I asked the question because I think in the public's perception, and certainly the perception of the media there is a need to move past the Clark years, and it was felt I think because Phil Goff was anointed by Helen Clark in some ways, that that change that break with the past didn’t occur.

David C Well I'm not sure that analysis is entirely right Sean, I think if you look at Labour Party history you'll see several strands of DNA that have been melded together over the years and I think it as legitimate a question to ask when did you last speak to Phil Goff as it would be when did you last speak to Helen Clark.

Sean Alright, okay. So you don’t see a need to provide a clear break here.

David C No, in fact I do – both from the Clark years and the last three years, and I would definitely say that the programme that I'm offering would be the most thorough programme of change at all levels in the party, and to the extent that there are some concerned about the ticket, it is possibly because maybe that’s not quite what they want.

Sean What's your strongest concern David Shearer about the internal workings of the party, the structure of the party and what do you think needs to change. What group do you think is causing the most problems if there is a group that’s causing problems?

David S Oh I think, right – I mean I find that the Labour Party has just become too focused on process. We end up going to meetings where we talk about process, and it hasn’t become a contest of ideas of really open ideas, and therefore it's become boring, and people join political parties because they want to have this contest, they want to argue stuff together and they want to see good stuff moving forward, and I think we've lost that, and I think we've lost some of our good thinkers.

Sean A lot of criticism but you're absolutely right. And do you agree with this?

David C I do, and I welcome the process that we've got over the next week where we're debating openly with each other and with our party members to make sure that we have that open dialogue.

Sean There has been criticism of the role of the Union Movement in candidate selection and the preparation or the way is the list is constructed. Do you both have concerns about that?

David S Two things on that, I mean I think one thing is our general membership has fallen dramatically therefore the union membership in a sense that it rises out of proportion to the general membership. I think that’s – and we need to work on that general membership.

Sean So growing the party will solve that problem if it's a problem?

David S Look I think growing the party will solve a lot of problems frankly, but the second thing – one of the other big issues is that we've had MMP now for what 15 – 16 years, we've just re in a sense reconfirmed that MMP will be the type of electoral system that we'll have. We set up our constitution and all of the apparatus around 1995, and it's time that we went back to that and took a look at it and said is it appropriate, is it working well.

David C Well look our President Moira Coatsworth has said that she wants to do a thorough going organisational and potentially constitutional review of the party, and I strongly support that. I think we need to modernise the structures and processes of the party and the caucus.

Sean Does that need to address that perceived influence of ….

David C I think that should be included in the issues for review, in the sense the broader context of understanding the processes around our selection process. Now I'm not knocking the role of the unions, unions are a legitimate and important part of the Labour Movement. It's got an industrial wing and a political wing and that must continue.

Sean Alright what would be the big idea both of you would bring to the table in terms of changing perceptions of the Labour Party, the single big idea you would take out on the hustings at the next election and put front and centre of your campaign to be the next Prime Minister? David Cunliffe

David C I think there'd be two words – reconnection and renewal. Reconnection with our base, renewal of the party and then reaching out to new constituencies that we once had that we've lost, middle ground voters, the business community, and upper income liberals. So we've gotta reach out in both directions and that challenge as I said before is especially true in the House. You’ve got Winston Peters, the Greens – Labour must research.

Sean Okay and you're saying you're best qualified in the House?

David C I've got a hard hat and I'm ready to go.

Sean Okay and you yourself and probably unfortunate you said you're a little green?

David S Well I guess I am actually.

Sean Well what's your big idea. What would be the big idea you would take out?

David S Well I think the first thing we have to do is actually genuinely go out and listen and I know that sounds kind of in a way cute or whatever, but it really isn't because if we have a loss at 27% we actually have to do that and one of the things that I'm looking forward to in the Christmas break is actually just going around, sitting and talking over barbecues, having a few beers and actually listening to what people said. Where did we go wrong? We've only had a week gone by so far, where did we go wrong, what did we do, why aren’t we connecting? Why isn't my own family necessarily connecting for example.

Sean Are your family not Labour Party supporters?

David S Not all of them no, and so why not, and you know there's a whole – you know I don’t want to go into their particular voting patterns and all the rest of it, but my wife does, so we don’t have any hostility.

Sean One thing neither of you have said is we need to beat John Key, we need to make John Key look bad. Does that come after you’ve done the renewal the reinvigoration.

David C There's a sequence here, I think we're gonna have to dive down internally for a bit, but not too long. It's great that we get the party reorganised, then we've gotta go out and win those middle class Green votes as well. We dropped 13% to the Greens, that’s too much, that’s too much, we have to win some of those back.

Sean Do you recognise that you are fighting on two fronts here, you’ve got the Greens as well?

David S Oh absolutely. But in a way I think if you look through our green policies if you like they're very close to the Green Party as well, and I think if we are going to be winning and getting back into government then were going to probably need the Greens as well. So it's a differentiation but it's not an out and out war.

Sean What came out last weekend Green's long term ambition is to replace Labour as the natural party of the left.

David C Sorry Russel, but that’s not gonna happen, or at least it's not gonna happen under the team that I think I could lead.

Sean Alright would it happen under a team you would lead?

David S I don’t think so no. Labour has been the dominant party, we have shown that we have changed over time. When you look at the Lange government, the Clark government, I think it will happen again, and it will happen again under my leadership I think, and then we will show that we are the dominant party, but the Greens could well be a partner to us.

Sean Let's talk about the other significant opposition party now in parliament, to some people surprised at New Zealand First. Would you both be comfortable or not comfortable leading a government that relied on the support of Winston Peters and New Zealand First.

David S I think we're away way down the track,.

Sean We might be but it's a question I'm going to put to both of you and give you both a chance to answer.

David C So if you're talking about a post 2014 election our aim is to be by far and away the dominant party in government after 2014, we'll see what the voters serve up then. What I will say is that Winston Peters is gonna be a crucial player in the next parliament, that our front bench lineup in the House is gonna have to be right on the ball from day one and is gonna have to be able to foot it in the House …

Sean Okay so you won’t answer the question that John Key answers as Prime Minister, I don’t do deals Winston Peters.

David C Oh look, I don’t think we can afford to write New Zealand First off, just as I don’t think you can afford to write the Greens off.

David S I think we're three years away from having to confront that. I don’t even know whether Winston Peters will be around in three years, I don’t mean that in an uncaring way, but he just might not be. So let's just face that when we come to it.

Sean Okay let's see what happens in ten days' time, but if you lose David Cunliffe you would be happy to work for David Shearer. David Shearer if you lose you'd be happy to work with David Cunliffe. What job would you give David Cunliffe if you won?

David S I've made it pretty clear to everybody that I've met that there is no deals over jobs, they come on a ticket, we're about renewal, and then we sit down and we work out what the best team is. But I'm not dealing in jobs right now.

Sean Right can I ask you, can you think of a better person right now to be Finance person for the Labour Party?

David S Look David is an excellent finance – look don’t get me wrong David was an excellent finance spokesperson, he's a huge talent and he would play an important part, but you know the other four people who might want to be Finance Minister ….

Sean Would you have him as your deputy.

David S I'm not gonna go there Sean. Not at the moment no.

Sean Alright, David Cunliffe.

David C Look I've said to David privately that I would love to have him on our front bench, and I think David is a great talent, he's a man for the future and he's a good bloke, so we would discuss what role he wants to play…

Sean Would you have him as your deputy?

David C No, no, I've said Nanaia Mahuta would be the deputy on our ticket, I think she plays an extremely important role in the lineup, but David has a very important role to play.

Sean Okay so you closed that door – you leave that door open – David Shearer for David Cunliffe?

David S Yeah all doors are open at the moment, Sean.

Sean Okay. What at this stage, and I know we're three years out, what slogan do you think you would be campaigning on off the top of your head 2014 election, David Cunliffe led Labour Party, what does it campaign on?

David C Oh look a new start for New Zealand. By 2014 New Zealand will be ravaged by….

Sean New start for New Zealand, we'll go with that. David Shearer?

David S Yeah I guess it would be along the same – a new New Zealand.

Sean A new New Zealand. New start for New Zealand, a lot of newness going on here. Alright you both intend to stay the course, run the 10 days.

David C Absolutely.

Sean Okay no one's gonna blink? We won’t be down to a one David race? Good luck to you both. Thank you both very much indeed for joining us on The Nation today.

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