Lisa Owen interviews RSA President BJ Clark and tech innovator Ian Taylor about changing the NZ flag

Lisa Owen: Welcome back. John Key wants a new flag in a two-part referendum next year and in 2016 to choose first a preferred alternative and then pit it against our existing ensign. Passions run high when it comes to the flag, and this morning we've got a few options from an exhibition of 50 flags that recently ran at a lovely Depot Artspace in Devonport. They're from some of New Zealand's leading artists, and we'll look at them soon, but joining us to debate the flag RSA President Barry Clark and tech innovator Ian Taylor. Good morning to you both.

BJ Clark: Good morning.

If I can come to you first, Mr Clark, what does the flag mean to the RSA?

Clark: I think the first thing is that the position of the national executive and the significant majority of those in the RSA is that we retain the current flag. It's the flag that our servicemen have served under. It's the flag that our servicemen have been buried. When their coffin is laid, it's covered with the New Zealand flag. It represents our history, and we're proud of our history, and that's one of the main reasons we don't want to see it changed.

So, in your view, what is the purpose of a flag? What role does it play?

Clark: It identifies you. Wherever you go, wherever our service people go, it identifies who they are. And I think that's the purpose of a flag of any country.

Does it say something about what we are, though, beyond just immediately identifying us?

Clark: I think the elements of the flag do identify where we've come from, and I think, as I say— we stand for the flag. At night the flag is lowered. We remember those that have gone past, and it's very important that we retain the history.

Does it concern you at all that that identity might to be too strongly tied to Britain and not to what we are now?

Clark: Not at all. Why should we be worried about where we've come from? We have come from Britain. The stars do represent the Southern Cross. The blue represents the sea that we're still surrounded by, so I do not see why we should be afraid of that.

Ian Taylor, you've been in the army, so what do you think a flag is for?

Ian Taylor: Well, let me hasten to add that yes I was. I was in the last military call-up, so being a part-time soldier for three years really does not qualify me for the RSA. But I agree with a lot of those things. I think— I think— I was born in 1950, not very long after the war finished, so in the little village I was brought up in, back in the 1950s, everybody knew the names on the cenotaph. So I agree. It is really important that the new flag must remember that.

You do believe, though, that there is a case for change, do you not? What is that case?

Taylor: So the case is I think it has to be relevant. One of my reasons — if we— One of the things I do not like about this debate is that it seems to fall into an argument between a younger generation and old soldiers looking back at the past. What we have to remember is that those soldiers represent teenagers and young New Zealand men and women who went away and died. I mean, there'll be parents out there who are just thankful that our children did not have to do that. So it's really, really important, and it is not an intergenerational fight.

So why do you think—?

Taylor: But it has to be relevant.

Why do you think it needs to change? What's wrong with the one we've got?

Taylor: Well, you might be surprised. And a lot of things I think we need to hold on to, and if I could run through those? The reason for the change is that I have had the privilege now for the last 10 to 15 years of travelling the world, and it's really interesting. We walk... We do golf tournaments all around the world. Our team walks to the fairways with the flag, and the flag we carry is the black flag with the silver fern. And we never have to explain where we're from. One of the most moving events we ever did was the one immediately after the September 11. We walked the fairway of the first American tournament we did with the American flag and the silver fern. And everywhere we went, people said, 'Thank you, Kiwi’. It was really powerful and really emotional. But I think it's really important. I'm not advocating the black flag and the silver fern, I think we do have to keep our ties, but for a different reason.

BJ, can we not recognise our history and have something new on our flag?

Clark: But I don't see why we should change. The history is the history. This is the country's flag. One of the things that also concerns me is that we don't have an overwhelming support out there, from what I've seen, for a referendum for the change of a flag. And this referendum is going to, in fact, take two referendums at great cost. And the way it's going to be set up is... You know, you could look at, say, $19 million just for two referendums. Surely, that money could be used for something more important, more pressing for the country.

But don't you think that will give you a benchmark, an actual number, a line in the sand? And do people want the one we've got or do they want to move on?

Clark: Then we would support public debate. We would support a referendum, and the first referendum should be, 'Do you want to change?' And then the other thing is, we are concerned about the fact that this referendum will be held in 2015 when we're holding significant remembrances for those who went to Gallipoli, for the Somme, Passchendaele — all these places where our servicemen went under that flag.

Do you find that offensive, BJ?

Clark: No, I wouldn't say offensive. I don't want to say offensive. I would say unfortunate. We would support a referendum if the public wants it, but let's look at when we hold it and let's look at why the government has to have that now. Is that the most pressing thing on the table of government?

Are you happy that, as it seems, a committee of politicians will choose if we decide to go for change, will choose the flags that people vote on? Is that the right way to do it?

Taylor: I agree with BJ. I mean, this is a decision for the people to make, so I think the first thing is the case and the argument for change has to be put and put coherently. At the moment, this country is a mishmash of representation. We've got the silver fern, we've got an airline travelling with the black planes with the silver fern. I mean, getting off the plane last night, somebody from the New Zealand ice hockey team stands up — black bag, silver fern. It's how we are recognised around the world. And I think it's really important. It is an important debate. It is something we have to address cos it's actually about our young people. It's about the young people who need to identify with the flag.

Clark: The taxi driver that brought me here this morning, Harvey, has come from Mumbai in India about eight years ago. And I explained to him why I was coming to Auckland for this interview. And he said, 'Why would you want to change the flag? I'm now a New Zealand citizen. That's my flag. I like it.' How will we represent all the different people that we have here in New Zealand now — the Chinese, the Indians, the Pacific Islanders, the Pakeha, the Maori — in one flag? We can't. So we have a flag that people have come to New Zealand—

But do you think the Union Jack represents that collection of people?

Clark: But it's the history of the country that we have become.

All right. If we're talking about presenting an image that represents us; humour me. Let's look at some of the ones that have been presented already. I think, on the very far left here, we've got this black and white flag. Michael Smythe. Does that say anything about who we are? Is that a flag that you could vote for?

Taylor: No, because I think it is really important, and again I agree with BJ. It is important that there is a relevance to the past. And you asked about the Union Jack. The Union Jack— the representation of the Union Jack in our flag is really important, not because it's where we came from; more importantly, because it's the basis of the Treaty of Waitangi. The Tangata Whenua signed a contract with Queen Victoria, so that needs to be represented. It's not colonialism; it's that treaty. What does it do to the treaty?

Well, when you say that— In front of you, gentlemen, you've got the second flag here, which is an Otis Frizzell design, which is apparently representing Aotearoa, the land of the long white cloud. It has elements of Maori culture in it and retains the stars from the Southern Cross. Is that getting closer? What do you think of all these alternatives, BJ, as well?

Clark: As I say, because I support the current flag—

You can't see past that?

Clark: I can't support these. But in saying that, I still go back to the fact that if we must have a debate, and if the people want change, we would support that change. But I haven't seen yet the evidence to say that they want the change. I don't see why we're looking at having two referendums when we don't fully understand whether they want to change.

Taylor: I can understand the reason for the confusion out there. It's why we need to discuss the reason for the change. Cos what happens— the public are faced with all of these alternatives. 'I hate that. I don't like this. I don't understand why. So let's stick with the old.' This is a really important question for our young people about the flag that will represent them. For me, the closest I've seen is the one right on front of us.

Well, the one right in front of us, which is a Kyle Lockwood design, this is the one that Prime Minister has sort of given a slight nod to.

Taylor: I'd like to know what his reasons were. So, if I could explain my reasons— And I've only just seen it. It holds on to the history; it remembers the soldiers that died. But, you know, we can't go on having our flag determined by the wars we've fought in. But it remembers that; it brings the silver fern, which is really how New Zealand is recognised.

BJ, I just want to point that one out to you. It does have a silver fern on it, but it still has the Southern Cross stars, it still has the colours of our flag. Compromise position, perhaps?

Clark: At the end of the day, if the public wish to go for a new flag, we will support that, but we are very solid in our stance that we wish to retain the current flag.

Well, before we go out, BJ, we also are displaying the current New Zealand flag. What does that say about us? From your heart, what does that say about us?

Clark: It's the flag that I joined the army on. It's the flag that, whenever I've gone overseas, it's flown wherever I've been under the New Zealand Army. A new flag isn't going to feed the poor. It's not going to make our army more fearsome. It's not going to make business more successful. There are times that the koru, the silver fern, etc., are relevant. I don't have a problem with a sports team having a silver fern emblazoned on their uniform. But at the end of the day, that's the flag that we have. Are we gonna change the flag we have in another hundred years?

Taylor: That's why it's important it's not a compromise. This is a really important debate, and it should not— I think— if I just might finish. The reason for holding on to the flag from the RSA's point of view was those young New Zealanders who died in other people's wars, but they died overseas. The future is about the same young people, the ones who are living today, to give them something. It's their call. Does that flag represent the New Zealand they know or is it the one that they are living in and moving forwards in?

Clear it's gonna spark a lively debate. If you want to see these flags and others for yourself, they will be on display up north in Rawene in mid-November.

ENDS

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