On The Nation: Lisa Owen interviews Andrew Little

Youtube clips from the show are available here.

Labour commits to spending $60m to double New Zealand’s refugee quota

Says the attack on Mosul planned for this year will determine if we are “winning” against Islamic State: “That’s going to be a test of whether the Iraqi Army has really transformed under the training that is being provided.”

Maintains his opposition to the training deployment in Iraq but says New Zealand has a role:

“Certainly, doing nothing is not an option. I mean, you know, the world has to push back on ISIS, certainly in Iraq.”

Lisa Owen: ...first up, any hopes the ceasefire in Syria could hold have been dashed this week after a hospital in Aleppo was bombed, killing at least 20 people. Over five years, the death toll from the war in Syria has topped 250,000 and is putting immense strain on neighbouring countries such as Jordan. Now, Jordan’s home to the Zaatari refugee camp, where 80,000 Syrian refugees live. That is as many people as Palmerston North. Labour Leader Andrew Little, on his way home after a surprise visit to New Zealand troops as Camp Taji, spoke to me just as he left the refugee camp.

Andrew Little: Yeah, listen, it’s thousands of people jammed together and, you know, these are people in a pretty distressing time of their lives. And you see them, and you see the young kids, you know, they don’t really know what’s happening, but, you know, it is, it’s pretty distressing to see it. I spent a bit of time in the morning with the local hospital and the people who turn up there who are injured, getting the treatment that they can. So, yeah, I have to say you can’t help but be struck as soon as you get here.

So, you support doubling the refugee quota to 1500, but seeing what you have just seen and the number of people in that camp, is that even enough, 1500?

You know, I think 1500’s right for New Zealand. In terms of the bigger problem and the tens of thousands or millions of refugees, of course, that’s a drop in the ocean. But for each of the families, for each of the lives, you know, it’s new hope, it’s a new chance, a chance of a new beginning. And no matter how small the number it might be, you know, compared to the overall issue, I don’t think we should hesitate to be making the gesture increasing that quota and even for that relatively small number, making lives better.

Do we have the services to support them? Because already, for example, Lower Hutt Health Services say they can’t cope with demand. So can we afford this? Can we supply the services needed for 1500?

Yes, I think we can. I mean, if you look, we have a net in migration of, what, over 65,000 each year anyway. And, of course, in a city like Auckland, that’s putting a huge pressure on infrastructure and housing and things like that. But the way, you know, we’ve managed the refugees so far, we’ve got a world-class refugee-resettlement centre in Mangere, just had a big upgrade. We’ve got communities across New Zealand willing to help. You know, it was amazing last year the letters I got from all sorts of groups, church groups and others that are willing to help. And, you know, I think we can afford it. I think still, you know, the number that we’re saying, 1500, compared to the total problem is very small, but, you know, we can do this. And it’s a matter of priorities.

Do you know how much it would cost to double that quota? You know, and is Labour committing to meeting those costs if it’s in government?

Yeah, as I understand it, the extra cost would be roughly $60 million. And I think, you know, when it comes to our contribution to the world, what we do to make the world a better place, we do it in a whole heap of other areas in terms of aid and development – it’s certainly in the South Pacific and in other parts of the world, because that’s what we should do as responsible global citizens – this is just a part of that. And I think it’s a contribution we can make. But in the end, in the long term, of course, we benefit, because people who come from the distressing situation they’re in, as they have now, get to settle in New Zealand. They take a bit of time to acclimatise and adjust, but in the end, they contribute something back, as we’ve always seen with refugees to have settled in New Zealand. So in the long run, it’s going to benefit us.

The thing is, there’s disquiet among some New Zealanders about whether we should be spending that kind of money on those services for foreigners. Some people think we should be spending that money on New Zealanders.

I don’t think it’s either/or. Of course we’ve got to look after people here. I get very concerned about, you know, you look at the unemployment figures for the young people aged 18 to 25, young people who need to get their start in life. So, you know, we can be a good global citizen as well. It’s not about either/or. And I think at a time of, you know, extensive humanitarian crisis such as we’re seeing, we’ve got to be doing our bit, and it’s got to be more than we’re doing now.

So you’ve been to visit our troops in Taji. You’re still against the deployment there, but isn’t the whole strategy to get together 25,000 Iraqi soldiers to take Mosul back? So aren’t we doing something useful by training the troops that will be part of that push?

Yeah, I’ve reiterated the concerns that I had, you know, when the deployment was first announced. And the reason we opposed it then was because of concerns about the Iraqi Army. And although, you know, I saw some great stuff happening in Camp Taji, great work that our folks are doing out there, and indeed met some Iraqi soldiers who were going through the training, but what some of the generals told me and, in fact, even one of the generals from the Iraqi Army whose brigade is going through some training at the moment, he said that across the wider Iraqi Army, there are real issues about motivation, you know, about the quality of people. Some of the trainers told me that some of the soldiers they’ve had going through the training, once the commanders turn their backs or aren’t around, the soldiers kind of lose all motivation, don’t want to learn, don’t want to listen. So that’s the issue.

So are we winning against ISIS, then? Are we winning against ISIS?

You know, the reports I had up there is that the pressure is on them now through things like, you know, shutting down their financing, disrupting their supplies, the oil supplies and arm supplies – those are the things that are helping make a difference. But it is true that in some of the cities, Hit is one of them, recently had a victory; Ramadi earlier this year, where they managed to push them back, they’ve got a big challenge. I think the real test is going to happen later this year, when they launch the assault on Mosul. That’s going to be a test of whether the Iraqi Army has really transformed under the training that is being provided. Because what the generals are telling me is that there’s a lot of the Shia militia that can’t be involved in that assault. It is going to be reliant more on the Iraqi Army. And I think that will be the ultimate test then. So, you know, let’s wait and see.

But isn’t that the whole point, Mr Little, that we are training soldiers that will be involved in that push, we are doing our bit, we are contributing something with that?

Some of the soldiers who will be involved in that are being trained at Camp Taji. There’s a whole heap of other soldiers who will need to be involved from the Iraqi Army who aren’t getting that training. And I think, you know, let’s see what happens in Mosul. That will be the test.

You’re basically reiterating concerns that you have raised before. In the past, you have said that the Iraqi Army is disorganised and corrupt. If that is the case and we cannot rely on the Iraqi Army, then aren’t there two other options? You send in more Western troops or you do nothing. So which would you have?

Well, I don’t think those are the only two options. Certainly, doing nothing is not an option. I mean, you know, the world has to push back on ISIS, certainly in Iraq. The next big challenge then will be Syria. Then you’ve got Libya, and you’ve got, you know, other parts of the Middle East. So it doesn’t stop at Iraq. And I think probably one of the things that I took out of the visit to Iraq and the visit to Camp Taji, the question that everybody, the leaders were all asking is, you know, what next? What happens after Mosul? And this is where I think, you know, the government has now got to tell New Zealand what does happen next for New Zealand. They’ve made the commitment, they’ve got deployment up there, our troops up there are doing amazing stuff in pretty trying conditions – it’s not a place I’d like to spend too much time – they are doing work with those bits of the Iraqi Army that are going through the camp, but they won’t be the only front-line folks facing up to ISIL in Mosul. So there is work to do, but we’ve got to know what happens next. And we will no doubt have a role there – that’s certainly what’s being asked of us at the moment.

Well, you said when this deployment happened that there was no question that New Zealanders would be put at risk as a result of us having this deployment in Taji. So have they been put at risk? Have New Zealanders been put at risk as a result of this?

I mean, certainly, the troops of Camp Taji, the security is very good, and, you know, they’re doing a great job there. In terms of New Zealand being identified as part of the coalition that is up there, of course there is a risk associated with that. How that could be manifest, you know, that could be anything. But there is that risk that goes with dealing with an outfit with ISIS. You know, they’re terrorist, they’re extremists, they have a, you know, pretty amazing kind of outfit that gathers information, propagandises, does all that sort of stuff. We cannot rule out, of course, that we are now part of, you know, they’re mix they’re thinking about, you know, where they go elsewhere in the world to have an impact.

Mr Little, will be out of Taji in two years?

You know, it was pretty clear to me that the job that we set ourselves to do or that our government set, you know, our troops to do simply will not be done in two years. And talking to the American generals, the Iraqi minister of defence and his generals, one of the brigade commanders, Iraqi brigade commanders, the Australians who are there, they’re all saying this is long-term. This is much longer term, which is why, you know, I say, and I said to Gerry Brownlee when I was there, ‘Gerry, you guys are going to have to be upfront with New Zealand. You know, what is the story? What next? Because it looks to me like the demands are on us.’ So I think it is important for the government, the New Zealand government to be clear with New Zealanders – what demands are being made of us by the coalition partners and by the Iraqi government, what are their expectations, and what is going to happen?

Mr Little, to be fair, the Prime Minister has said that he understands all of that, but he’ll still want to be out in two years’ time.

Well, yeah. You know, it looks increasingly to me like when they said we’re not only making a commitment but it’s for two years and then we’re out of there, that looked like a reason to kind of, get the troops up there, be part of what’s going on, and then deal with the inevitable, what happens at the end of the two years, kind of later on. There is no way you can say that the mission that was, you know, started in May last year is going to be complete after two years’ time. It won’t. And, you know, the question will arise, what happens then? You know, what the Iraqis told us, in fact, the Americans told us, the criticism that they got was the minute they kind of scaled back and left after the conflicts in the 2000s, that’s when kind of chaos started to erupt. So it’s not as easy as saying we’ve done some training, we’re out of here, because there will be a vacuum left. And the question is, you know, what do we need to do to avoid a repeat. This is where I think the New Zealand government now has to be upfront with New Zealanders about the reality of the situation – what are we being told by the coalition parties, by the Iraqi government and by others?

All right. Thank you very much for joining us this morning. That’s Labour Leader Andrew Little in Jordan. Thank you.

Thank you.

Transcript provided by Able. www.able.co.nz

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