On The Nation: Lisa Owen interviews Amy Adams

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Headlines:
Says the $130 million family violence package is all new money, and there’s enough despite originally asking for $168 million
Says the package was setting up the legal framework, the next wave will work on early intervention targeted services
Some funding for NGOs in the $130 million, around 10-15%. NGOs like Women’s Refuge will receive extra funding for new roles in applying for protection orders on behalf of victims
Says success is an increase in the reported levels of family violence along with a reduction in the harm caused by it

Lisa Owen: Welcome back. On Tuesday, the government announced a $130 million package of measures to tackle family violence. It includes making protection orders easier to apply for, helping perpetrators access services, and creating new offences of non-fatal strangulation and coercion to marry. But with Women's Refuges and other organisations around the country having to fundraise to make ends meet, how much of that money will head to front line services? The Justice Minister Amy Adams is with me from Christchurch now. Good morning, Minister.
Amy Adams: Good morning, Lisa.
Why do you think that we have one of the highest rates of intimate partner violence in the world?
Yeah, that's certainly a really tough question to answer. We know that it's a significantly intergenerational issue, and for many of these families, this is what they know, this is how they grew up, it's what they see in their community. And changing expectations about how relationships work, what it means to show love and respect to family members is a very difficult and long-term piece of work.
So $130 million announced this week in these initiatives. You did go to Cabinet asking, I think, first off for $168 million. So have you got enough money?
Yeah, look, the money is not the issue. The money is simply a reflection of the package that we put together in terms of where we thought the offences should be set, and Cabinet has made those decisions. And actually, I think the important thing to really understand is that this is the first part of resetting the whole way we respond to family violence. So this sets up the law, creates the legal frameworks, creates the way the system can respond. It is not the end of it. There is another much wider piece of work underway now, right across the Ministerial Group, led by Anne Tolley and myself, looking at how we get the right services to the right people, how we fund them, how we build the capacity, because there's no doubt capacity is an issue to respond. But the violence isn't going to go away, and if we want to make a difference, we have to be prepared to do things differently.
So if we look at this package, then, and the money being spent here, how much of that is new money and how much of it is redirected or re-prioritised money?
So, the prime minister confirmed on Tuesday that it's all new money. So what we've done is set up, say, the legal framework, and we've worked up the impact of those changes right across the system — on policing, on courts, on the corrections system, obviously. But also set up the funding for the new initiatives included in the package, like the independent Risk and Needs Assessment hub; like the funded support services for people who want to get protection orders; like a supervised hand-over service, so all of that is funded in the package. The next wave is looking at how we really enhance those targeted services that we have to get to families in trouble much, much earlier in this continuum of violence.
So, how much of it's going to go to front line services like Women's Refuge?
Well, I'll be very honest. The most part of this package is around responding to, as I say, the new offences, the tougher line on protection orders, the tougher line on bail, keeping people in prison when they need to be in prison longer. That's the biggest part of the cost. There's cost in there for police officers to ensure that they can respond. But there is cost, as I say, although it's a smaller part of the package, around that Risk and Needs Assessment hub, around the funded support for protection orders and around the supervised trial handovers. The bigger part of funding the actual services is what we're actually working on now through the Ministerial Work Group. I've made it quite clear this is not the end of our solution; this is the first part of it.
But to be clear, Minister, so none from this package going to those front line agencies like Women's Refuge?
No, there is absolutely funding in there for NGOs, but it's absolutely the smaller part of the package. The bigger part is how we fund the right services—
Can you put on a figure on that for us?
Oh look, I wouldn't want an estimated figure. I haven't totalled it up, but it would be 10%, 15%. It's not the biggest part of the package by any sense. It might be lower. The biggest part of how we're thinking about the services, how we fund them, how we build that capacity is, as I say, what the Ministerial Work Group is working on right now. We've been quite clear that that piece of work is still occurring. What we've found is until we get the legal framework right, it'd be very difficult to get those services to perpetrators earlier as we really need it to do. So that work is still coming. We've never suggested that this is the whole of it.
Because Minister, the thing is — if I can just interrupt you there — because the thing is in 2011, your government cut funding to Women's Refuge by $700,000. I just want to read out a couple of examples of what they're struggling with here. Tauranga Women's Refuge funded for 120 crisis calls in 2014. They got 1878, so they fundraise about 10 grand a month to cover that. Waikato Women's Refuge contracted for 1600 cases a year. But they tell us they deal with between 4000 and 6000. So isn't this where you also need a big injection of money?
Well, I certainly agree with you that we need to do a lot more in building the capacity and the availability of services if we're going to make the difference, and that's what I've been saying — that that is exactly what the Ministerial Work Group is looking at now. We're looking at the money that's currently going in; we're looking at what the capacity is. The reality is, Lisa, that at the moment, we need to get far more information about where the demand is, what are the services that are needed. So we know about the amount of volume. What we don't have a really clear steer on is how much needs to be targeted towards alcohol and drugs; how much needs to be targeted to mental health; how much needs to be targeted to housing and job assistance and budgeting services. It's not as simply a matter of having a one-size-fits-all support funding programme. And actually, the changes that I've announced this week are putting in place the systems that we can far better assess what is needed, what support is going to make a difference knowing that we can get it much earlier in the system, and building the capacity. Because it's not just about funding — actually, there are real workforce challenges right across the country, and that is the work that is happening right now.
In terms of that, though, organisations like Women's Refuge, why they welcome all these changes, potentially they're going to have more responsibility with these changes, applying for protection orders too on behalf of women, aren't they? So will they get specific funding to assist them to do that?
Well, as I've said, to the extent that these changes create new roles for NGOs like Refuge, that is absolutely funded in the package. But what I'm saying is that, quite apart from that, we do recognise that there is a capacity challenge that we need to meet, and that is the issue we're working on right now. But my clear view is that you have to get the legal platform right first. I'm the Justice Minister, that's the piece that I'm directly responsible for, and while we're legislating those changes right across government, across ministers representing 16 portfolios, we are designing exactly what that level of capacity looks like, how we get there.
Will those NGOs be able to apply for legal aid in order to pursue protection orders?
Yes. So under the package, we've set up a system whereby if an NGO wants to be applying on behalf of victims, they can through a process to get approved, because obviously we need to make sure they've got the right structures in place. And then that will be something that we'll be assisting them with with the costings.
Okay. So it's 110,000 police call outs a year to family violence. But 80% of cases, they say, are unreported, so that's more than 400,000 more cases. What's your target in terms of reducing those numbers?
And look, that's a really good point, because I think one thing that people have to understand is that if we do our job well, if this package starts to make real inroads, you're actually going to see those numbers going up. Because you're right — our best guess at the moment is only about 20% of those reported. So we fully expect that we're going to see more reporting of family violence over the next few years, and strangely enough, that's a good thing. What we need to see is people reaching out for help far earlier in this cycle of violence. We want to see a big reduction, obviously, in family violence homicides. Half of the homicides in the country at the moment are family violence.
How will you measure success, Minister? Because you don't have a number, how will you know if your programme has achieved what you want it to?
So success for me is a reduction in the amount of unreported family violence, so an increase in the courted volumes but also a reduction in the harm that's caused by family violence. So we're working on building a harm measure that measures not just the volume but the severity. So if we're seeing a lot more reporting at a lower level of harm, that's a good thing. What I want to see is a drop in homicides and drop in serious assaults.
How will you know regarding those figures in terms of unreported? Because you don't know what you don't know.
So we have the survey called the New Zealand Crime and Safety Survey, which is our best way of assessing what the unreported level of family violence is. So we do that survey on a regular basis. And, look, it's not a perfect measure — we accept that — but it is our best estimate and best way of assessing what we think is the unreported volume. So if we see an increase in reporting, I think we can safely assume that that is cutting into that unreported area. But what we absolutely could measure is — are we seeing a drop in homicides, are we seeing a drop in serious violent assaults? And that, to me, is what success looks like. It means far less serious violence being caused across New Zealand. And I think that's something we absolutely have to aim for. It's not going to be easy, but I'm not going to accept that we can't make a difference.
All right, thank you so much for joining us this morning, Minister.
You're welcome.
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