On The Nation: Patrick Gower interviews Te Ururoa Flavell, Willie Jackson and Marama Davidson

Headlines:
Maori Party co-leader Te Ururoa Flavell says whether his party goes into government with National or Labour after the election depends on who gives them an invitation, and what their supporters have to say.
Flavell says he would struggle to work with New Zealand First leader Winston Peters, but that he can’t rule it out because “it’s a decision for our people”.
Labour’s Maori campaign director Willie Jackson says Labour could work with Peters in a coalition government, despite Peters’ calls for an end to the Maori seats. But he says there will be no referendum on the seats under Labour.
Green MP Marama Davidson says the Greens’ preference is for a Labour/Greens/Maori coalition. Jackson says Labour’s preference is for a Labour-Greens deal without the Maori Party, adding “under the Maori Party, things have never been worse for Maori”.

Patrick Gower: The Maori seats are set to be as crucial as ever this election, particularly for the Maori Party. Co-leaders Marama Fox and Te Ururoa Flavell need to win their seats to stay in Parliament. I spoke to Te Ururoa Flavell earlier this morning from Rotorua about what happens after election day.
Te Ururoa Flavell: Well, we’ve just got to wait and see what happens after the election, eh? Most of the time, our people have given us a lead. We’ve always gone back to them after each election and asked the question. But it’s based on the fact of whether we get an invitation. I mean, as we’ve had in the last nine years, we’ve been on the side of National on the basis of an invitation given to us when the National government never ever needed the Maori Party. So that’s a huge plus. On the other side of the coin, traditionally, our people have been with Labour. So what happens is that we get to a point after the election, find out where the cards fall and then basically take a position that we would promote for our people based on how the numbers stack up. But we’d go round the country, check in with everybody, check in with all of our supporters to make sure that they’re comfortable with our position, all depending on whether we get an invite. We know that the Nats are prepared to give us an invite. The question is whether Labour’s prepared to give us an invite – and we’ll just have to see what happens – and, in fact, whether they’re in a position to give an invite. That’s all still to be determined because the polls, as you know, are falling all over the show. So we’ve just got to wait and see.
Patrick Gower: Yeah, but if it is Labour this time around, Te Ururoa Flavell, if Labour is able to give you that invite to their table, is that where you think your people lie? Is that where your heart sort of tells you that your people lie – that they would like you to go with Labour if you could?
Well, my heart says we want to be ourselves and independent and have an opportunity to go wherever they tell us to go to, so we’ll just have to see. Look, I’m comfortable either way. We’ll just have to wait and see, but, of course, it all depends on the invitation, Paddy. If we don’t get that, it’s all over. And I think that our people have sort of talked up the notion of being, you know, with the Greens, certainly, because we have some alignment with their policies. Sometimes with Labour now and again.
Yeah, sure. And in terms of Winston Peters, could the Maori Party work in any government where Winston Peters is there with this policy of wanting to have a referendum on the Maori seats? Could you in any way support any government where Winston Peters was involved?
That’s probably the catch, Paddy, when you ask the question about where we’d lie, because both National and Labour have to stitch up a deal, and possibly New Zealand First would be a part of that scenario. I can tell you my heart says I’d be struggling to sit with New Zealand First. Their policies are divisive. They are actually an anathema to where the Maori Party sits. “We want to get rid of the Maori seats, want no Maori wards, want to get rid of Whanau Ora, take out treaty wording and any legislation.” I mean, it’s the exact opposite to where the Maori Party sits right now, and more importantly, in terms of this whole country, it’s a divisive campaign that’s leading us, I believe, down the wrong pathway. Be that as it may, we have to see where the cards fall. And personally, I’d struggle to sit next to those from New Zealand First against those policies that are absolute opposite to where the Maori Party sits.
Yeah, but are you actually ruling that out, Te Ururoa Flavell? Because it sounds as if you’d hate the idea, but you haven’t actually ruled out supporting some kind of government with Winston Peters in it.
That’s right. That’s because it’s a decision for our people. As I’ve said before, it would be a little bit crazy for me to tell you that we’re going to go back and talk to the people and then basically declare a position on TV in front of you. What I’ve declared is my personal view about that. But it will be for our supporters and our people to tell us where we’re going to go.
So your personal view is, ‘No, I will not support a government with Winston Peters,’ but you will give your people the due respect by going back to them on that?
I’d definitely give my people the due respect of going back to them, and personally I would struggle very much to be a part of a governing arrangement that had New Zealand First with it.
Sure. And just on Marama Fox, she is your moon, she is your stardust in the Maori Party. How worried are you that if you get up in your seat and if Howie Tamati gets up in his, that Marama Fox will miss out altogether? Because it is a very big possibility, as you know.
That’s right. I’d be hugely disappointed. I mean, Marama and I, I think, are a great combination. We’ve worked side by side for the last three years. She works very hard and brings that special edge to us. Probably, I’m more established, a little bit more conservative and probably a little bit more older than her. She brings that young energy. She’s a huge asset to the Maori Party, no doubt about that. She’s the co-leader, for goodness sake. And while it would be great to have our other members in Parliament, all the other members coming through, at the end of the day, she’s known all the way that she’s got to win that seat, and that’s why it’s important that everybody thinks carefully about where they place their vote.

Patrick Gower: Well, here in the studio with me are Labour’s Maori campaign director, Willie Jackson, and Green MP Marama Davidson. I want to start by saying this is the first time I’ve actually seen Labour and the Greens doing something together despite the memorandum of understanding.
Marama Davidson: You haven’t been looking hard enough!
Now, I want to start with you, Willie Jackson. And this question will come to you as well, Marama. Winston Peters — so, say for instance we look at some of these polls showing us a government where Labour and the Greens can work together like you guys are right now, but Uncle Winston has got to get there to get you across the line. Can you guys work with Winston Peters if he brings this policy with him of a referendum on the Maori seats?
Willie Jackson: We can work with Winston. We’ve made that very clear. Our first obligation is to the Greens, though. That’s a commitment that we’re following through with. We’ll be ringing their co-leader. And we hope they do well next week, because we are a bloc; we represent left wing and a lot of Maori and working class interests. But Winston is someone— Of course we can work with him. He’s worked well with Labour in the past. He’s talked about this Maori seats referendum. Everything is negotiable. We’ll see what the numbers bring us. But I don’t think he’s going to die over one particular thing. He’s got a number of bottom lines.
But would you die over it? Would you say, ‘No way. No way, Jose, can we go in if that referendum’s there’?
Jackson: No need to take that position. In coalition negotiations, negotiations are quite different. When you get there— Look, the Maori Party went and had a cup of tea and breakfast with Don Brash the day after Brash had just finished the most racist campaign in the history of New Zealand politics. So of course we can talk with Uncle Winston. Not a problem. We’re not going to die in a ditch over anything. He’s a senior politician. Done a lot for working class people. We’ll talk with him.
But this is what my question is — you should be saying, shouldn’t you, that you would die in a ditch over those Maori seats and a referendum on them.
Jackson: Well, Labour have already made it clear there’ll be no referendum under our watch. Absolutely. But that doesn’t mean we won’t talk with Winston.
Marama Davidson, can the Greens, in this kind of situation we’re talking about where you’re in with your brothers and sisters from Labour and then there’s Uncle Winston that’s needed to come around the table, can the Greens work with Winston Peters if he tries to bring this Maori seats referendum to the table or on anything else as well?
Davidson: Okay, so we have worked with Uncle Winston in the past. I was really happy that he supported our feed the kids bill, and that is currently my bill in the Member’s Ballot at the moment. On the referendum, the Greens have been really clear. Already Maori have the agency to vote on the general or the Maori roll. We already have that agency. We already are able to make that decision. Our opposition to Winston Peters’ policies, we’ve been very clear and upfront about that. We have been very clear that we won’t put up with some of his attitudes and policies and approaches that pull on that populous racism stuff that we need to actually be resisting. But, yes, we have worked with Winston on issues. What we’re concentrating on is getting as much of a party vote as possible for the Greens so that Labour and Greens don’t need to consider anyone else.
Yeah, well, that is a situation that’s arisen recently as well. Which is Labour and the Greens and maybe, just maybe, to get across the line, you could get in with the Maori Party if they get one or two seats.
Davidson: Yeah, absolutely.
So how do you feel about that kind of government? That seems to be exciting.
Davidson: That’s our preference for a truly progressive government for a government that’s going to help the Green Party get our priorities over the line, which are to end poverty, to clean up our awa, to take real action on climate change, to get te reo Maori universally in all schools. That’s the government that we know we have the best shot at being truly progressive for our country.
Jackson: But as you know, we’re going to get the reo in the schools five years before the Greens.
Davidson: They haven’t yet put out a proper plan yet, Willie, but, yes, we can work with you; we can help you out with that. We’ll help you out with that.
But this is right, isn’t it? So that’s the preference for the Greens — a progressive government, Labour, Maori, Green. Is that your preference too, Willie Jackson?
Jackson: No, it’s not. We want to work with the Greens. We may work with the Maori Party. We’ll just see how the numbers—
You are trying to destroy the Maori Party. You’d like to wipe them out.
Jackson: That’s you and Duncan Garner. You know how you get carried away, Paddy.
Davidson: This is a political election, after all.
Jackson: We want to take them out; they want to take us out. That’s the nature of the game. It doesn’t mean I want to destroy them. I love their whanau and their friends and whanaunga. No, we just want to take them out. If they came up on Election Day, we’ll talk with them. But they’re not my dream sort of view. Look, under the Maori Party, things have never been worse for Maori. 43% of our people are waiting for state rentals. 43% of our people. We’re only 14%. Half of the prison population are Maori. Unemployment — 11%. So we’ve never been worse off. And suicide — we’re killing ourselves at double the rate of Pakeha. All under the Maori Party watch.
Come on, Marama. Come on, then.
Davidson: Paddy, what I know is that Maori across Aotearoa actually want to see us working together. The Greens are very clear that we can work together and work on those common ground areas that we have. And I know that Maori want to see us doing that, and the Greens are happy to play a leadership role in bringing our politics together.
Do you guys reckon that there’s a bit of a split in the Maori Party and that Te Ururoa is more keen on the National and Marama Fox is more keen on you guys?
Jackson: There’s no doubt about the guy.
Davidson: Well, Paddy, this is a general election. Every single party, all of us are going to be having our own campaign. We all want to get as many party votes as we can. There’s no doubt about that.
Do you feel that there’s split in the Maori Party that Te Ururoa’s more on the National side?
Jackson: Oh, no doubt about it. He’s put out blogs to say he wants to go down the National track. Marama Fox has talked about Labour. Then every second day she—
She wants the Greens too. She wants the Greens.
Jackson: She keeps putting the boot in. I disagree a little bit with Marama over here that Maori want —
Davidson: I’m shocked.
Jackson: I know you’re shocked. No, I think some Maori want us to go with the Maori Party, but a heck of a lot of us want us just to work with the Greens, because they’re irritated and angry with the way that the Maori Party have worked with National. Things have never been worse in terms of our people, Marama.
Davidson: And this I know. And what I also know is our people want to be clear on what they’re voting for. It is the Greens and the Labour Party who are saying we’ll change the government. That is a vote of change, whereas the Maori Party is a vote of chance. And so we do have to be clear about that. I would love to work with the Maori Party, but I would like them to commit to getting rid of the very government that has made things worse for our people, our awa and our climate.
Jackson: I don’t understand why you want to work— Look, I’m happy to work with them. I work with them now. I work with them every day in Whanau Ora, Maori radio, Maori TV, but I’m confident of her. She’s been a defender of Maori rights for many years. I’m confident of our caucus — Nanaia Mahuta, Kelvin Davis, Adrian Rurawhe, all the way through.
We’ve only got a few seconds left. When are we going to get compulsory te reo Maori in schools so all kids can learn it if you guys get into government?
Jackson: We’ve got the most comprehensive plan, much better than the Greens. 2025.
You haven’t got a date on yours.
Jackson: 2025.
Davidson: So, we’re not going to promise things earlier than we can realistically achieve them. We’ve got an actual plan. We have said we need to get a taskforce up and running where we will work with the curriculum and the Ministry of Education. We will increase the incentives and scholarships and have a targeted market programme for that. We’ll help you out, Labour. We’ll help you out.
Greens have got a plan, and Labour haven’t, but they’re going to work together on it. That’s a summary here. Thank you very much for your time, guys.
Davidson: Kia ora.
Jackson: Kia ora.
Good luck out there.

Transcript provided by Able. www.able.co.nz

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