On Newshub Nation: Lisa Owen interviews Corrections Minister Kelvin Davis

• Corrections Minister Kelvin Davis admits the original 360 rapid build prison units commissioned by the previous government to be ready for use in February this year are "still under construction".
• Mr Davis says he is "entirely optimistic" that Corrections will reach the target of a 1500 reduction by 2019 to avoid a potential failure of the prison system. "We’re defying the forecast; we’re defying the projections".
• He agrees the prison population is currently 1000 prisoners over safe capacity, but says the Government is "working to reduce that" with its justice reforms
• Asked whether he could guarantee that emergency measures such as triple bunking and using Corrections vehicles as temporary cells, he said "Well, the way the prison population is going down now, we won’t need those measures."
• Kelvin Davis said a more open conversation was needed about why there was so many Maori in prison. "It’s not good for New Zealand. If we have fewer Maori in prison, we have Maori be more successful, Maori doing really well, then the whole of the country benefits."

Lisa Owen: Kia ora, good morning, I’m Lisa Owen. Welcome to Newshub Nation. Andrew Little billed this week’s Justice Summit as the start to an honest conversation about reforming our criminal justice system based on real evidence. The government’s drumming up support for its law reforms aimed at reducing our overflowing prison population by 30 per cent in the next 15 years. But Corrections Ministry Advice notes it will be years before any law change takes effect, and prison overcrowding is already at crisis point. There are currently around 10,200 people locked up in our jails — over a thousand more than the safe maximum limit. And documents released to Newshub Nation reveal that under current conditions, the prison system will be stretched to failure by 2021. So, what’s the government’s plan? Well, Corrections Minister Kelvin Davis joins me now. Good morning, Minister.
Kelvin Davis: Kia ora.
You want to have a conversation that is based on honesty and facts, so there’s a few facts that I want to put to you. You are already well over the safe inmate levels in our prison. Justice reform will take some time for the effects to flow on, and you’ve basically maxed out all our jail space. You’re in trouble, aren’t you?
Well, no, actually, the facts are that the prison forecast had us at about 11,500 by the end of the year. We’re now at 10,200. Since March, the prison population has reduced from 10,800. So, there’s work that we’re doing just to streamline processes within the system that are actually having a positive effect on the prison population.
So you’re talking about bail — making sure people are ready for parole hearing, making sure they can get electronic bail if they can. But the advice that we’ve seen has told you that will only give you savings of prisoners of a couple of hundred, so you still can’t make the numbers.
Well, we’ve reduced the prison population by 600 in six months, and we know that those initiatives that we’ve already started through the High Impact Innovation Programme will start to plateau after time, so I’ve said to Corrections, ‘Look, put your thinking caps on and come up with the list of ideas that are going to see the prison population continue to go down.’ But we’re under no illusion that to reduce the prison population by 30 per cent over 15 years. It is going to take all of those 15 years, and we’ve made a really good start.
So, the question is, kind of, what happens in the ‘in-between’ years? And another piece of information— another fact is as recently as March, Cabinet papers reiterated to you that more police —because you’re getting 1800 more police — would result in 646 more prisoners by 2027. And I’m just wondering, have you factored that in? Because we can’t see it in any of your projections.
Yeah, so it’s been factored in, and as—
So you accept there will be an increase of around 627?
Well, I’ve had conversations with my colleague Stuart Nash, the Minister of Police, and if they take a preventative model and look at more educational-type stuff, he’s telling me that he doesn’t believe that there will be a significant increase in the prison population. But, look, we’ve had the Justice Summit over this week. You know, 700 people from across the justice system have come together. They’ve produced tonnes of ideas, basically, and the data needs to be crunched. We’ll be going through that over the coming weeks. And we’ll be looking at what the people of New Zealand are actually saying that can help us to improve the whole justice system and, of course, Corrections is a major part of that.
Nobody is taking away from the noble intention of lowering the prison rate. It’s about what we do in the meantime, because as you’ve acknowledged, it takes a significant amount of time. I just want to go back to these police numbers — the fact that the increase in police is projected to give you 646 more prisoners. You’re saying if you’re taking a preventative approach, it’s not going to happen. So are you saying that advice is wrong? There aren’t going to be any more prisoners as a result of these police?
Well, what I’m saying is that Corrections is doing a fantastic job. It has done a fantastic job already. We’ve only been in government less than a year, and we’ve managed to defy the projections, and we’re a thousand below where they— where we’re told that they would be.
But your extra police are coming online, so are you going to get more prisoners out of that?
Well, like I’m saying, if there’s a preventative approach to policing, then it may not happen.
Right.
So, look, Corrections have put on their thinking caps. We’ve already got the High Impact Innovation Programme that is having a significant benefit. It’s reducing the prison numbers, and we’ve got more ideas that we launched at the summit. We’re asking people for their feedback on that, because if we can improve them, if they’ve got other ideas, well, then, we’re open to hearing from them.
Well, Corrections did have an idea, and it was Waikeria Prison. And, obviously, it was planned as a 1500-bed prison. You actually supported at least 1000 beds in Cabinet papers. And official advice was that was the best to ease overcrowding. So why did you sign off on 600 when you supported a bigger prison?
So, if you look at that advice, that came about six weeks into us becoming a government. You know, good leadership is about taking your time to make decisions. I think we’ve landed at the right place — a 500-bed prison; 100 beds for mental health. We know that mental health is a big problem in corrections and in the justice system. So I think we’ve landed in the right place when it comes to the prison population. We’ve also got a rapid-build units coming up—
But how when you look at all these numbers — this is the thing — and all the advice? You would have seen all the papers that I’ve got, and they all talk about the fact that you need extra capacity, even if you want to achieve the goals that you do — better rehabilitation — that you need more humane spaces in order to do that, and more space to contain prisoners while you work to do that. So how is 500 the right number?
Because we’ve also got other programmes going on, we’re going to increase the number of beds by some 1500 over the next 18 months. We’re also reducing the prison population. As I’ve said, we’re well below forecast. In fact, we’re well below the previous year’s forecast as well. So this government is actually on the right path. We’re on the right track. Reducing the prison population safely is the right way to go. We’re not looking at those forecasts as a target. We’re looking at them as a warning, and we’re doing something about it. And what we’re doing is working at the moment.
But there is a significant body of expert advice that says you can’t rehabilitate properly in these conditions — double-bunking, overcrowding, inhumane cells. And in fact, according to Corrections Cabinet papers, that you would need at least 4000 new prison beds just to replace sub-standard, inhumane and double-bunked cells. So how can you create this better justice system, more humane justice system, that you want if you can’t get those basics right?
Well, we did inherit the situation that we’ve got, and we’re taking steps to improve that situation. The double — There’s one thing to double-bunk people, what’s also important is them having more time out of their cells, more time in training, more time in education, more time— You know, basically those human needs being looked after.
But that’s difficult to make happen in over-crowded prisons.
Look, it is difficult. This isn’t a—
So you need more space.
…simple situation. This is a very complex situation that we’re having to grapple with, and we’re doing a fantastic job in just 10 months of government of actually addressing these issues.
Well, in March this year— As recently as March this year, official advice to you was, on current tracking, unless you built new facilities, you could end up triple-bunking and using Corrections vehicles as temporary cells. Can you guarantee that that’s still not going to happen on your watch?
So, what we’re doing is— We’re actually defying the odds. We’re defying the forecast. We’re defying the projections, and the prison population is actually reducing, and we’re doing it safely. So, that’s what I’m saying, that those projections—
But not by the scale that you need based on the beds that you’ve got. So I’m asking you again, can you guarantee that you will not have to resort to those measures on your watch?
Well, the way the prison population is going down now, we won’t need those measures.
Andrew Little has been the minister who has been sort of front-footing this issue so far. You are the Corrections Minister, so I’m wondering, you seem to have been keeping quite a low profile, are you 100— for the record, are you 100 per cent happy with the decisions being made and the direction that you’re tracking in?
Look, myself, Andrew Little and Stuart Nash, we’ve been working closely together, as well as Aupito William Sio — he’s the Minister for Youth Justice — we’ve all been working together. We’re very happy with the way that the Justice Summit has gone. We’re very happy with the way we’re tracking. We can see that in Corrections, our numbers are tracking down, so, you know, we’re confident— look, the other thing is that the government, our whole approach, be it in raising incomes, reducing child poverty, improving the health system, the education system — all of these things are helping at the front end to prevent people going in to prison in the first place. And so it’s a whole of government approach — stopping people going in to prison in the first place is our priority. Making sure that if they go in to prison, when they emerge, they’re better people, not broken people. We’re supporting people when they emerge from prison, wrapping services around them so that there’s less chance of them re offending, so, you know, this is a big package of work we’re doing.
And people understand the philosophy, but all of those things that you have indicated there, they are things that take time. And 15 years is the time scale, so it’s about what you do in the interim. So, again, you are bringing in rapid builds or pop-up cells, right? The first 360 of those cells were commissioned by the previous government — that was via a tender in 2017. So how many of those pop-ups are on site and operational now?
They’ll be ready in the— The ones that we’ve commissioned will be online by—
I’m asking about the first lot.
…by 2019.
The first lot? So you’ve carried on with this, so there’s 360 that were commissioned in 2017. How many of them rapid builds are on site right now?
Well, they’re being constructed. And look, they’re—
So none?
Look, the way that the prison population is at the moment is that we’re—
Okay, so none? I just want to be clear before we carry the conversation. So none of those rapid builds are on site right now?
Well, they’re being built now. So even the ones that the previous government has commissioned, they’re still under construction, but they’ll be on site. But the thing is that we’re reducing the prison population now, and we’ve got 1000 spare beds as we speak. Whereas in March this year, we were very close to—
Where are those beds? Because you were using some of your emergency beds to house prisoners at the moment. So, if there’s an earthquake, you’ve got a reduced number of emergency beds, don’t you? So where are these extra thousand beds?
Because we’ve reduced the prison population by some 600 in the last six months, we’ve freed up the space. So it’s all around the prison estate. So, you know, like, what we’re doing is working and—
So the most recent numbers that are in the public domain and in the advice that has gone to you is that you were a thousand over safe maximum capacity.
Yeah, but there’s still a thousand beds buffer that we—
But you’re still a thousand over maximum capacity?
That’s right, and we working to reduce that—
So you’re still operating in an unsafe environment — a thousand over safe maximum capacity?
We’re operating in the environment that we’ve inherited, and we’re improving that environment.
Okay. I want to go back to these rapid builds. So none of those original 360 are on site. As I understand it, they’re being put together offshore in China, aren’t they? So when was the original delivery date for those?
Look, I’m not sure of the original delivery date, but the fact of the matter is that—
February, I believe, of this year was the delivery date. So none here.
Look, the fact of the matter is that we are reducing the prison population, and we’re reducing the pressure on the whole system, which is making our prisons safer. In fact, I was talking to Ray Smith last night. I received a text from him saying that he had visited the prisons in Christchurch, and the staff there were reporting how much better it is that the reduction by 600 since March has actually made conditions in prison a lot easier for them.
Well, documents released to us under the Official Information Act, which were initially redacted, but just this week, we’ve received it with the figures visible. You need to reduce the prison population by 1500 by 2019 or else you could face failure of the prison system. Are you going to make that target?
Look, like I’ve said, we’ve reduced the prison population by 600 since March—
The target that you need to make according to that advice is 1500 by 2019 to avoid potential failure of the prison system. Will you reach that target?
Well, I’m entirely optimistic, because, like I said, we’re defying the forecast; we’re defying the projections; and we’re making the prison system—
So are you betting on optimism?
No, you can see the evidence. As I’ve said, we are actually reducing the prison population — we’ve done so by 600 in six months. Now, this time last year under the previous government, there was no way on earth that they would have entertained the thought that it was possible to reduce the prison population. And we’ve said we’ll do it, and we’ve started on it. It’s going to take all 15 years to reduce the prison population by 30 per cent, but we’ve made a great start.
And that is why you are needing to bring on some capacity. And I just want to finish this conversation about the rapid builds. My understanding is that the original tender — these were supposed to be delivered by February 2018; there are none on site at the moment. Is there a problem with the design of these?
No, not at all. Look—
Okay, so the company had their contract extended — $125 million contract — for 600 more, they were ordered under Labour’s watch, so was that put to tender? Because none of them are on site at the moment, are they?
The thing is, Lisa, we were— we had trouble in March. You know, we were looking really shaky in terms of extra capacity. We’ve now increased that capacity by— to the state that we’ve got a thousand spare beds. But we need to be—
So you’re saying it doesn’t matter that these aren’t on site yet? Is that what you’re saying?
Well, what matters is that we’re making the prison system safer, better, we’re increasing capacity just by doing small things to reduce the bottlenecks in the prison system. We’re doing very well, and I think that needs to be recognised.
Okay. How much does racism and so-called institutional bias have to do with the very large Maori incarceration rate? It’s more than 50 per cent.
Yeah, look, 51 per cent of the prison population — and it’s 10,146 as of yesterday, I think — are Maori. Of those 5000 who are Maori, 2500 are my people of Ngapuhi. So I’m invested. I have a personal interest, as much as any Corrections Minister has ever had in reducing the prison population, because what we’re doing is we’re locking up people — teenagers— late teens through to early 30s, which is when you should be finishing off becoming the person you are, and yet they’re being finished off inside prison cells.
So what role does racism and institutional bias have in that?
Yeah, we have to—
How significant is it?
Well, we have to examine why it is that there are so many Maori in prison. You know, it’s not good for New Zealand. If we have fewer Maori in prison, we have Maori be more successful, Maori doing really well, then the whole of the country benefits, so—
So we need to have an honest conversation, an open conversation about it?
That’s right. Well, look, I have to acknowledge Mike Bush, who said that— who acknowledged unconscious bias in the police—
Yeah, on this show, he did.
That’s excellent, because if we at least can have those sorts of honest conversations, then we can start looking at the honest solutions.
Okay. So in documents released to Newshub Nation under the Official Information Act, the lines referring to the fact that unconscious bias and systemic bias were likely to be contributing to Maori over representation in the justice system — those were redacted. Are you nervous to put that information out there?
No, not at all. I think it’s something that we really need to have a conversation about—
So why hide it in your official documentation? Why redact it?
Well, the thing is that we need to be talking about all the— everything that leads to so many Maori going in to prison and falling in to the justice system. We need to be looking at ways to prevent that from happening. We need to be looking at ways to address Maori offending at the most early stage we can so that they don’t end up going in to prison in the first place, because that’s the last place we need our people to be.
Okay, so the Justice Summit this week. After that summit, about 3500 prison officers received this letter here, and it was from their union. And in this letter, they outlined the fact that they feel let down by the Corrections Minister — you, Kelvin Davis. They feel that you didn’t acknowledge their hard work and difficult conditions, the letter said. And it outlines the fact that over the last six years, Corrections staff have been assaulted by prisoners more than 2000 times. They want to know why you’re not talking about that.
Look, I acknowledge the hard work that Corrections officers do all the time. In fact, I acknowledged them specifically at the summit, so, look, they’re working with—
Sorry to interrupt, but 7882 days have been lost due to assaults over the past six years, according to this information here. They support changes, they say, if they can be done safely. And overcrowded prisoners are not safe for everyone.
And that’s why we’re looking to reduce the prison population, and we have started doing it. The safety of our Corrections officers is our number one concern. In fact, safety across the whole—
So you’re 100 per cent happy with their performance?
What do you mean?
The prison officers. Because they feel that they weren’t acknowledged significantly enough in your Justice Summit and that you didn’t defend their work.
Oh, I have the utmost admiration for Corrections officers who are working with the most difficult people in New Zealand. In fact, I acknowledge them every time I get up to speak in a corrections situation, be it graduations. It’s a fantastically difficult job that they’re doing, and they need to be acknowledged. We say it all the time — myself and Ray Smith. And that’s why we’re trying to reduce the prison population, because that’s the way we can make sure that they are the safest they can be at work.
Thanks for joining me this morning, Corrections Minister Kelvin Davis.

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